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SAAB Gripen and Gripen NG thread #4

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  • Vnomad
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • May 2011
    • 2859

    Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
    Given that The Netherlands has selected F-35A but will struggle with the cost and Belgium also has a limited budget. why don't Belgium and The Netherlands arrange to share F-35 support equipment and services to make the thing less expensive to operate? Belgium is very, very small.
    There's also the RAF & USAF just across the channel. It'll also integrate well on overseas deployments. Sharing support does make a lot of sense. As does pooling in resources for routine air policing. Same QRA flight could serve both Netherlands & Belgium. Question is, would it doable in light of the Flemish-Walloon balance?

    Comment

    • Loke
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jun 2008
      • 3302

      Originally posted by obligatory View Post
      "
      but on a serious note, i do wonder why this is, that in a competition where F-18 & gripen think they got a shot,
      F-16 do not
      Wow, that's amazing, that's -- poetry!

      Comment

      • swerve
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jun 2005
        • 13610

        Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
        F-16C Blk 50 (-GE 129). Gripen E (as per Saab brochure).
        What's your source for the F-16C Block 50 figures?
        Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
        Justinian

        Comment

        • Loke
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jun 2008
          • 3302

          Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
          More like 27-30 Gripen Es (see: Switzerland).
          Pure speculation -- the price for Belgium will depend on numerous factors, not the least whether Saab/Embraer have already scored some sales by the time Belgium decides.

          At the time of the Swiss offer, there was only Switzerland (and a hefty TOT deal) thus price was rather high.

          4.7 billion gets Brazil 36 a/c, a massive amount of ToT, and a production line... Unless Belgium insists on having an assembly line, the price to Belgium should be somewhat lower me thinks.

          http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...deal/74415116/

          Comment

          • Loke
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jun 2008
            • 3302

            Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
            Indeed. The trouble is that as the capability differential with it larger cousins shrinks, so does the difference in cost. Personally, I'd expect the larger Eurocanards to cost about 33% more (maybe.. as much as 40%). The smaller operators may be willing to make that trade in the Gripen E's favour, but it'll have a much harder going against the F-35A.
            True, however increased production will lower the price, as it is doing for the F-35... So it will be cruical for Saab to have more customoers.

            If Gripen E will have "a much harder going against the F-35A" what would you say about Rafale and Typhoon!? Why would anybody (apart from India and a few other countries) pay more for an inferior product?

            Comment

            • Loke
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jun 2008
              • 3302

              Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
              There's also the RAF & USAF just across the channel. It'll also integrate well on overseas deployments. Sharing support does make a lot of sense. As does pooling in resources for routine air policing. Same QRA flight could serve both Netherlands & Belgium. Question is, would it doable in light of the Flemish-Walloon balance?
              USAF just across the channel!?

              Anyway, Sweden and Brazil are also just across the channel....

              Comment

              • Ozair
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Oct 2015
                • 822

                Originally posted by Loke View Post
                USAF just across the channel!?

                Anyway, Sweden and Brazil are also just across the channel....
                He is referring to the already identified USAF unit that will operate F-35s from the UK.

                Comment

                • maurobaggio
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jul 2008
                  • 521

                  Originally posted by Sintra View Post
                  Sigh...
                  "EJ200 with vectoring " was not "plan A".
                  SAAB invited bids by Eurojet and General Eletric, GE won.
                  The reason why the Swedes didn't stuck an F414 in a Gripen before is simple, money, redesigning a fuselage to house a bigger engine is complex (F4K anybody?) and expensive, at least by Swedish MOD standards.
                  ' Further Gripen upgrades under consideration by the air force( but not yet contracted out) included passive search and track system( Saab Dynamics IR-OTIS, a russian stile infra red ball sensor mounted in front of the canopy); a helmet-mounted display from one of two competing sources: the Oden display from Celsius or a joint Ericsson Saab/Pilkington proposal; a phased array radar ( Ericsson active electronically scanned antenna or AESA ; and thrust-vectoring ( following a study involving the Eurojet EJ200 engine) since cancelled due to lack of funding.'

                  Mr. Jergensen, Jan Gunnar. Combat Aircraft, N 02 page 165, March 2003.

                  In my humble opinion the article had not been evaluating only the EJ200 for the Gripen NG, but it were about considering that the best option would be an engine with TVC, then in this case were mentioned EJ200 with TVC because it could be in development for Typhoon at that time. About the F404 or F414 I really do not know if there were any project with this TVC for the F/A 18E/F or other fighters.

                  Another interesting point about this article should be that at least 2003 there weren't any evaluating over an increase from range or weapons load capabilities of the future Gripen NG, as it had been done since 1995 by the US with the F/A 18 E/F in relation of the F/A 18 C/D.

                  In any case this does not mean that after 2003 the Gripen NG project has changed from its first evaluation , and now it has been implement the concept from F/A 18E/F.

                  However the changes between the F/A 18 C/D to F/A 18 E/F has been further complex than it has been observed so far so far between the Gripen C/D and the Gripen NG.

                  However, this problem is unsolvable:
                  Originally posted by maurobaggio View Post
                  I have been keeping those doubts for years, but it could be resumed in this question: if the engine F414 does wonders for the Gripen NG today, why they have waited 21 years to implement this?

                  Comment

                  • Vnomad
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • May 2011
                    • 2859

                    Originally posted by swerve View Post
                    What's your source for the F-16C Block 50 figures?
                    Wikipedia. Although the USAF fact sheet puts it at 8,900 kg, making it, as Spitfire9 said, 11% heavier than the Gripen E with 30% additional thrust.

                    Comment

                    • Vnomad
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • May 2011
                      • 2859

                      Originally posted by Loke View Post
                      Pure speculation
                      True for most of the conversation on the forum.

                      the price for Belgium will depend on numerous factors, not the least whether Saab/Embraer have already scored some sales by the time Belgium decides.

                      At the time of the Swiss offer, there was only Switzerland (and a hefty TOT deal) thus price was rather high.
                      'At the time of the Swiss offer'?? The Swiss referendum on the deal with the same associated cost, was conducted in May 2014, hardly eons ago. After the Brazil announcement as a matter of fact.

                      The Belgian deal will also require Saab to commit to offsets (which they may have 'overcommitted' to Brazil - $9.4 bn worth). And in any case, a mere 36 additional aircraft isn't going to change the cost of the aircraft by a huge deal.

                      4.7 billion gets Brazil 36 a/c, a massive amount of ToT, and a production line... Unless Belgium insists on having an assembly line, the price to Belgium should be somewhat lower me thinks.

                      http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...deal/74415116/
                      This is the contract signed with Saab. The stark disparity in costs with the Swiss deal suggests that a complementary contract has been signed with Embraer accounting for the balance.

                      Originally posted by Loke View Post
                      If Gripen E will have "a much harder going against the F-35A" what would you say about Rafale and Typhoon!? Why would anybody (apart from India and a few other countries) pay more for an inferior product?
                      Just the Middle East. And possibly India (thanks to some run-of-the-mill political idiocy). Otherwise they're pretty much done for on the export market.
                      Last edited by Vnomad; 12th February 2016, 22:57.

                      Comment

                      • Vnomad
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • May 2011
                        • 2859

                        Originally posted by Loke View Post
                        USAF just across the channel!?

                        Anyway, Sweden and Brazil are also just across the channel....
                        There's an entire ocean separating Sweden and Brazil. The USAF, in contrast, will be based less than 300 km from Belgium.

                        US announces first F-35 in Europe to be based in the UK

                        09 January 2015

                        RAF Lakenheath in Suffolk will become home to the first 2 US F-35 fighter jet squadrons in Europe.

                        The US Department of Defense has announced that RAF Lakenheath will become home to the first 2 US F-35 squadrons in Europe with the first aircraft due to arrive in 2020.

                        The announcement is part of the US Governments review into the American military footprint across Europe.

                        The basing of US F-35s at RAF Lakenheath confirms the American military presence in the UK for the foreseeable future. It also means that for the first time in decades the US Air Force and the RAF will have operated the same type of aircraft from the UK.
                        .
                        .
                        .
                        The build up of US capabilities and subsequent increased investment at RAF Lakenheath is particularly welcome as it will lessen the impact of the base consolidation decisions also being announced by the Department of Defense today, 8 January. However, the investments the US is making at RAF Lakenheath, and the advance notice given, will reduce any local impact of the Mildenhall drawdown.

                        Additionally, the US facilities at Alconbury and Molesworth will be returned to the MOD, with associated US roles and missions being completed within a single facility at RAF Croughton.

                        Comment

                        • FBW
                          FBW
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3295

                          Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
                          Wikipedia. Although the USAF fact sheet puts it at 8,900 kg, making it, as Spitfire9 said, 11% heavier than the Gripen E with 30% additional thrust.
                          We had this same discussion on pg.6 of this thread. The block 50 has gained weight in the last 15-20 years, that and manufacturers use "cough" optimistic empty weight specifications. The bottom line, as I stated on previous pages, the F-16 without fuel and weapons (but including pilot, unrecoverable fuel et. al.) weighs 9661 kg at operating weight. What the Gripen E weighs is anyones guess as Gripen 39-10 is not due to fly for another year.

                          Comment

                          • Sintra
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Aug 2007
                            • 3849

                            Originally posted by maurobaggio View Post
                            ' Further Gripen upgrades under consideration by the air force( but not yet contracted out) included passive search and track system( Saab Dynamics IR-OTIS, a russian stile infra red ball sensor mounted in front of the canopy); a helmet-mounted display from one of two competing sources: the Oden display from Celsius or a joint Ericsson Saab/Pilkington proposal; a phased array radar ( Ericsson active electronically scanned antenna or AESA ; and thrust-vectoring ( following a study involving the Eurojet EJ200 engine) since cancelled due to lack of funding.'

                            Mr. Jergensen, Jan Gunnar. Combat Aircraft, N 02 page 165, March 2003.

                            In my humble opinion the article had not been evaluating only the EJ200 for the Gripen NG, but it were about considering that the best option would be an engine with TVC, then in this case were mentioned EJ200 with TVC because it could be in development for Typhoon at that time. About the F404 or F414 I really do not know if there were any project with this TVC for the F/A 18E/F or other fighters.
                            One of a multitude of possible improvements studied under the program "Gripen 2010" was TVC, but that was not the main reason for searching for a new engine, it was thrust, Saab invited bids from GE and Eurojet, while having paralel talks with Volvo. GE won.

                            Originally posted by maurobaggio View Post
                            Another interesting point about this article should be that at least 2003 there weren't any evaluating over an increase from range or weapons load capabilities of the future Gripen NG, as it had been done since 1995 by the US with the F/A 18 E/F in relation of the F/A 18 C/D.
                            "Gripen 2010" image (circa 2000) right here:

                            Click image for larger version

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                            Notice the CFTs? And below there were two aditional pylons by comparison with a Gripen C. SAAB was indeed looking for increases in range and bigger weapon loads even before the 2000s started.

                            Originally posted by maurobaggio View Post
                            In any case this does not mean that after 2003 the Gripen NG project has changed from its first evaluation , and now it has been implement the concept from F/A 18E/F.


                            However, this problem is unsolvable:

                            What problem?
                            Last edited by Sintra; 13th February 2016, 00:49.
                            sigpic

                            Comment

                            • eagle
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2000
                              • 2369

                              Originally posted by FBW View Post
                              We had this same discussion on pg.6 of this thread. The block 50 has gained weight in the last 15-20 years, that and manufacturers use "cough" optimistic empty weight specifications. The bottom line, as I stated on previous pages, the F-16 without fuel and weapons (but including pilot, unrecoverable fuel et. al.) weighs 9661 kg at operating weight. What the Gripen E weighs is anyones guess as Gripen 39-10 is not due to fly for another year.
                              Here's what the flight manual for Greek F-16s says:
                              AIRCRAFT OPERATING WEIGHT - LB*
                              F-16C Block 50: 20,000 / 9080 kg
                              F-16C Block 52+: 20,200 / 9170 kg
                              F-16C Block 52+ with CFTs: 21,200 / 9625 kg
                              *INCLUDES PILOT, OIL, UNUSABLE FUEL, AND TIP MISSILE LAUNCHERS.
                              How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
                              Yngwie Malmsteen

                              Comment

                              • obligatory
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 7043

                                umm, wow, never saw that pic before

                                Comment

                                • FBW
                                  FBW
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Dec 2011
                                  • 3295

                                  Originally posted by eagle View Post
                                  Here's what the flight manual for Greek F-16s says:
                                  AIRCRAFT OPERATING WEIGHT - LB*
                                  F-16C Block 50: 20,000 / 9080 kg
                                  F-16C Block 52+: 20,200 / 9170 kg
                                  F-16C Block 52+ with CFTs: 21,200 / 9625 kg
                                  *INCLUDES PILOT, OIL, UNUSABLE FUEL, AND TIP MISSILE LAUNCHERS.
                                  Yes, I used that as the standard too, did you use the update or original? Or was my math wrong?

                                  Comment

                                  • Loke
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jun 2008
                                    • 3302

                                    Got it.

                                    Comment

                                    • Loke
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jun 2008
                                      • 3302

                                      I still haven't lost a dogfight to a US fighter in the JAS39 (although I haven't met the F-22)
                                      https://twitter.com/wisemanswisdoms/...44471033565188

                                      Pilots....

                                      For those who are curious: he is referring to 1v1 and F-15C, F-16 and F-18. Probably a few years ago?

                                      Comment

                                      • Loke
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jun 2008
                                        • 3302

                                        Originally posted by Vnomad View Post


                                        'At the time of the Swiss offer'?? The Swiss referendum on the deal with the same associated cost, was conducted in May 2014, hardly eons ago. After the Brazil announcement as a matter of fact.
                                        I believe the Swiss decided before Brazil -- the Swiss deal was stopped later of course due to the referendum.

                                        The Brazilian order is the biggest export success to date for the Gripen. Saab has sold most of the roughly 200 Gripens in service today to its home customer, the Swedish Air Force. South Africa has bought 26 and Thailand 18. Switzerland has also bought 22 of the same advanced version, the Gripen E, that Brazil has selected, but that purchase is still subject to the possibility of being blocked by a public referendum next year.
                                        http://www.ibtimes.com/president-dil...ghters-1514060

                                        Comment

                                        • velociraptor
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Sep 2009
                                          • 23

                                          Originally posted by Loke View Post
                                          https://twitter.com/wisemanswisdoms/...44471033565188

                                          Pilots....

                                          For those who are curious: he is referring to 1v1 and F-15C, F-16 and F-18. Probably a few years ago?
                                          Hmm.. nope, that should be up until less than 1 year ago... The response from Mikael Grev would be referring to earlier experience though, I think he left SwAF after the Libyan operation. His comment is "I can only claim the first six words."

                                          Comment

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