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  • obligatory
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2008
    • 7043

    establish scripted RoE

    Altho most of Turkish down Russia Su-24 thread went down the trash-can, there was one comment worth contemplating:

    Originally Posted by Austin
    Turkish jets gave us no warning before shooting rescued pilot of downed Russian Su-24
    Originally posted by ijozic
    As said before, it was pretty clear that the Russian pilot didn't hear any warning just by looking at the radar track since the Su-24 didn't change the flight plan throughout the incident. Now, AFAIK, there are multiple radio frequencies that can be set up in the cockpit and it's quite possible that the Russian pilots were not listening to the military guard (emergency) frequency while on their mission (which is the frequency the Turkish planes were using presumably). Wouldn't be the first time; IIRC, the Soviet Su-15 pilot sent several warnings to the KAL flight to change course and the pilots were apparently not aware of those since they continued on their way. Similar thing happened in the USS Vincennes incident. So, if you sent warnings doesn't mean the other party received them.

    Again, a radar STT lock would have sufficed if the Turkish pilots wanted to warn the Su-24 pilot who - seeing the lock warning on the RWR - would surely break away.
    ...an international agreement of a specified frequency and a radar lock in case of malfunction/oblivious pilot,
    before firing, or its a break of international law.
  • Vnomad
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • May 2011
    • 2859

    #2
    Interesting issue. (And its probably best to keep the whole Turkey-Russia-Syria thing out of this thread.)

    So.. what radio frequency are such warnings typically broadcasted on? 121.5 MHz? 243 MHz? Or some other? Do all aircraft including non-NATO aircraft monitor both channels by default? Does there exist an accepted international agreement on the matter?

    Comment

    • obligatory
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2008
      • 7043

      #3
      to get full cover, i think its something all manned a/c has to be equipped with to be certified, airliners, hobby a/c, etc,
      so hardware also need to be cheap.
      For sure airliners is the first to address the issue.

      i think visual contact cant be a requirement, some a/c are faster than others and it could be exploited by the likes of Eurofighter 2000,
      but none comes close to speed of light.

      More generally i think RoE has to be tightened up,
      just two days ago a Hercules decided to bomb the life out of doctors without borders in Afghanistan,
      ground targets could, unlike a/c, be required to be identified visually, or considered a crime against humanity
      Last edited by obligatory; 26th November 2015, 01:33.

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      • Blue Apple
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Feb 2009
        • 396

        #4
        Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
        Interesting issue. (And its probably best to keep the whole Turkey-Russia-Syria thing out of this thread.)

        So.. what radio frequency are such warnings typically broadcasted on? 121.5 MHz? 243 MHz? Or some other? Do all aircraft including non-NATO aircraft monitor both channels by default? Does there exist an accepted international agreement on the matter?
        Good question. In the case of the Vincennes, IIRC the plane was listening to 121.5MHz while the ship was calling them on 243MHz...

        (not that it would have mattered, the ship was addressing an imaginary "descending F-14" so the straight flying A300 would have ignored the calls anyway)

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        • Jungle Boy
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Apr 2004
          • 230

          #5
          Originally posted by obligatory View Post
          ...an international agreement of a specified frequency and a radar lock in case of malfunction/oblivious pilot,
          before firing, or its a break of international law.
          Do you have a source for it. The part of the "radar lock".
          Thank you.

          Comment

          • obligatory
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2008
            • 7043

            #6
            Originally posted by Jungle Boy View Post
            Do you have a source for it. The part of the "radar lock".
            Thank you.
            no, i'm speculating about two different independently ways to alert a pilot that someone is up to no good

            Comment

            • hopsalot
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2012
              • 3166

              #7


              Seems clear enough, though again that assumes the Russians had their radios on.

              Comment

              • Jungle Boy
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Apr 2004
                • 230

                #8
                Originally posted by hopsalot View Post


                Seems clear enough, though again that assumes the Russians had their radios on.
                Was this audio edited? Is this ground control or the F-16 pilot?

                I only heard two warning. Am I mistaken?
                Turkey said it gave 10 warnings.

                After that the order to fire was given by ground control or was the pilots decision?

                Wheres the rest of the audio?

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                • MSphere
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 8983

                  #9
                  The original audio is much longer. I seem to remember that the first warnings included "Change your heading slightly" instead of "immediately".
                  The question remains on what frequency this was broadcasted and if it's mandatory to have such frequency turned on at all times.. No idea, honestly

                  Comment

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