Su-24 in anti-shipping role during the 70s/80s

By: CayceG - 5th October 2015 at 19:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I was looking at the use of AVMF strike planes for attacking smaller crafts like corvettes /missile boats which do not have SAM , what kind of weapons can the Su-24 employ against such craft during the cold war years ? such an encounter was probably likely in the Baltic region where there were a plethora of German/sweedih/Danish crafts.I was thinking that the LGB/ AS-7 and maybe as suggested by other posters the AS-12/AS-11 missiles might be employed.The Kh-31 and Kh-35 probably were not available during the cold war

Thanks

I'm interested in seeing the AVMF strike plans you found. Is there a way you can share those?

But since I'm only guessing, I would think it would be Kh-25s that would be employed.

By: ijozic - 5th October 2015 at 19:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Kh-25 is AS-10 Karen ? I m not sure if it can home on to all kinds of radars though

Home on to all kinds of radars? These are not anti-radiation missiles and I don't see why you'd want to use an ARM against small corvettes/missile boats which don't rely on air search radars?

By: CayceG - 5th October 2015 at 20:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I'm mistaken then what would you think would be a better option to use on such craft ?

Laser or TV guided munitions that can be guided by a person. Laze the target from standoff distances, launch the missile, then guide it in. I'd say an attack helicopter could even do it too with something like Vikhrs.

But that's my conjecture based on capability. I generally don't know the actual plan.
What did the attack plans you saw say the attack profiles or missions were? Sharing that would be a help.

By: maurobaggio - 9th October 2015 at 06:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I didn't , but it seems like that the enormous number of Su-24 available to the VVS a fair number of them could be diverted to anti-ship missions esp against those vessels not equipped with SAMs

In specific the AV-MF had been fitted mostly with supersonic ASM ( Anti Ship Missiles) capable to reach long range, as well as attack aircraft's both supersonic and long range capabilities. Just to mention the subsonic Tu 16K Badger that were equipped with supersonic ASM AS 6, the supersonic Tu 22 Blinder with supersonic AS 4 and finally the supersonic Tu22M2 / 3 Backfire with AS 4. Along with the strategic Tu 95K-22 from VVS equipped with AS 4 (Kh 22).

However all those srike aircrafts from Soviet Union has been mentioned above were designed as anti ship missions in blue waters, in another means at long range from shore or itself from Soviet Union.

About the former Soviet Union the Su 24M from VVS should not have been keeping the priority as the mission from anti ship warfare since the Soviet Union had a widely assets from anti-ship missions.But that was at the time of the Soviet Union.

Otherwise the main mission of the Su 24M from AV-MF that has been operating from air bases over the coast should be support amphibious landing operations from Soviet Navy( Russian Navy today), both in the Black Sea, Baltic, Caspian and even in the North Sea and the Pacific.

In order to support amphibious missions from Soviet Navy would be necessary first to eliminate the coastal defenses from the enemy, then in this case even with anti radar missions with anti radiation missiles Kh 25MP or even Kh 28 in the 70, and already during the 80s with the Kh 58 and later Kh 31 could be carried out in order to eliminate the coastal fire control radars that could guided both artillery and anti ship missiles, or even against fast boats has been eqquiped with anti ship missiles.

However despite the concept of this fast boats with ASM( Anti Ship Missiles) has not been widely used in Western navies, with the main exception of the Israel, Sweden, Norway and Finland, otherwise both the Soviet Union and China had become the largest operators of those small vessels as fast boat with ASM during the Cold War.

These missiles boats could be characterized as naval assets for brown waters, ie near of the coast, once those vessels has limited autonomy and conditions to support long stays at sea, even in the adversary meteorological conditions or 'coarse sea'.

In sumary those missile boats has been conceived for a tactic as know as shoot and hide, once those small vessels just leave the coast only to strike a target, and return as soon as possible to the coast in order to hide from the enemy's counter attack.

How those missiles boats has been capable to navigate and anchor in shallow waters, it can easily hide in rivers and estuaries as well as remain very close from islands or deep in fjords. This makes it highly difficult for detection by radar both from ships and and ASW ( Anti Surface Warfare) aircraft's.

Heavy and large aircraft's such as the Tu 16K, Tu 22 Blinder and Tu 22 M2 / 3 would not be much adequate for this mission, once it would operate over the enemy coast and airspace, in this case those aircraft could in range of enemy fighters and SAM , beyond that those maritime search radar from long range would not be effective in detecting these small vessels as missiles boats so close to the shore or even the coastal defenses.

However the Su 24M has been much more maneuverable as well as were designed to operate at ultra-low levels, thus more suitable both in attack against coastal defenses s as well as the detection thereof, in particular of the missiles boats almost hidden very close of the shore.

As the Su 24M could operate on advanced air bases more close from amphibious landing areas of the Soviet Navy, in this case the reaction time these Su 24M would also lower comparable with the large and heavy strike aircraft's, in case of the Soviet or Russians ships would under attack from enemy missiles boats

In both cases only to mention how the PGM( Precision Guided Missiles) could be used by the Su 24M, the Su 24M with its optical system Kaira could use the versions from laser or TV of the PGM as the Kh 25 to achieve precision hits against small vessels like missiles boats and sink it, and still remain beyond of the range from AA from those small vessels, or short-range SAM or even MANPADS.

This would be the classical mission of Su 24M and even Su-24MR from the former Soviet Union both of the AV MF and even the VVS into a naval warfare against China and West Countries as NATO, however classic does not mean it would be unique.

By: maurobaggio - 18th October 2015 at 02:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Although specialized aircrafts has been used for ASW, SIGINT( Signal Intelligence) , ELINT( Electronic Intelligence), COMINT (Communication Intelligence), reconnaissance at high altitude and low orbits satellite reconnaissance, as well those assets were already available from Soviet Union in the 70s, but mostly those system were able to detect large civilian or military ships in blue water or even in the coast, but the coastal defenses and small vessels along the shore had remained a problem.

About the features of the Su 24M the capabilities to carry out attacks at low level and high speed, though even the ground mapping radar and Kaira laser designator/TV-optical system could not have mighty been enough to detect the coastal defense systems and small vessels as missiles boats near the shore.

Those systems has been describe above were not capable alone to completely replace the use from special ground forces in the reconnaissance and designation of the targets as coastal defense systems as missiles boat hidden in the shore.

In this case special forces even as combat frogman from Soviet Union could be released by submarine or mini-submarine near the coast in the case of presence of hostile naval forces and coastal defense, in case of SAM or fighters over the shore were a threat to the use of helicopters or to release paratroopers from aircraft's along the coast.

It should be interesting to note that among the more traditional special forces( SEALS, SBS , Naval Spetsnaz and others) has been coming from navies around the world, which would among other missions the reconnaissance and target designation for both artillery of military ships and to attack aircraft , both for amphibious landing as to attack targets near the coast.

The infiltration of small groups from special forces in coastal regions where there were the intelligence reports would indicate possible activity from small vessels as missiles boats, such as bays, estuaries, cliffs, rivers, straits and channels as well as large ships even in harbor, in fact it would be very useful to Su 24M a as these strike aircraft could get the data from the target by special forces on the shore.

The Su 24M would penetrate the enemy territory in flights at ultra-low levels to avoid the air defenses from SAM and enemy fighters, and it could avoid the long range detection even by the naval forces near the shore.

In this case special forces along the coast, beyond the traditional optical devices and UHF/VHF/HF radios devices in the '70s, a little-known system, and perhaps still has been used in new versions, that would be the man portable radars for both detection and designation from naval targets in adverse weather conditions (fog) or even during at night at close range from the coast.

Just to illustrate it could be mentioned that US had been using since the 60s with special forces equipped with those man portable radar to designate targets hidden in Vietnam forests. The man portable radars or even home beacon emissions has been the precursor from laser designator systems and GPS devices as well portable data links.

This portable radars worked through the emitting a concentrated beam from radar waves that were directed pointed against the target, or could be used as home beacon to identify the position of the special forces in the ground, and then it could be detected by ground mapping radars from combat aircraft like the A 6A Intruder, F 111A Aardvack, RB 57 Martin, EB 66 Destroyer, B 52D/F Stratofortress and AC 130 Hercules among others.

At this time there were not GPS and much less portable, beyond what even with accurate maps( most likely) from special forces would be very difficult, still under a dense forest, to obtain precise coordinates for attack aircraft, in this case those portable radar had been provided at this time better precision from aircraft attack, and security from Special Forces did not come under tons of unguided bombs released by attack aircraft's.

In the case of special forces on the coast with portable radars or mini-submarines in shallow waters, though those emissions from portable radar could be detected by ships equipped with RWR( Radar Warning Receiver) , still those emissions would come from the friend territory's coast, in this case they could not be classified as hostile and it does not alert the garrisons of the vessels.

The Su 24M after received the preliminary Intel as bearing and coordinates from the target could approach the targets with its main radar from ground mapping in stand by mode, without emitting signals that could be detected by the target, if necessary only with terrain following radar to fly at low levels , and get the target in passive mode once it would be illuminated by portable radars from special forces Only after the target would be detected in passive mode, then the Su 24M will pass to active mode or not if could be use the for the Kaira laser designator/TV-optical system to carry out the attack against the target.

Anyway in main aspect the maritime coast has been provided for the aircraft such as the Su 24M a high-capability to fly at ultra-low levels and high speed since it can use the adjacent 'sea-runway' to the coast during this flew, and still remain very close to shore and so to hide or even naval radars or SAM batteries far from the shore. In this case the greater maneuverability of the Su 24M has been compared to larger aircraft such as the Tu 22M2/3 would be an advantage in attack naval targets near of the coast.

After all the long range aviation from VVS and AVMF that were equipped with Tu 22 Blinder, Tu 22M2/3 Backfire, Tu 16K Badger had been designed to strike sea targets or ships in blue water as well far way from its air bases or the Soviet territory.

The Su 24M has had another capability over the Tu 22M2/3 once the Su 24M has been equipped with refueling probes that has been forbidden for the Tu 22M3 even today.

Once with its in-fly refueling capability the Su 24M could reach almost the same range of the Tu 22M2/3, but instead to strike sea targets in blue waters as the long range aviation, the Su 24M were highly suitable to strike sea targets in brown water or near of the shore ,as well close the harbors where the air defenses assets would be quite active.

By: maurobaggio - 27th October 2015 at 00:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

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Do you think the missiles carried by Tu-22 Backfire and Badgers AS-4 and AS-6 kingfish and Kitchen could be used against naval targets like destroyers ? approx. 3000-5000 tonne ? or were these targets too small for these missiles ?

Those anti ship cruise missiles (ASCM) like the supersonic AS 4 and AS 6 has been often described in the West as 'anti Aircraft Carrier missiles', indeed those ASCM would be used first against both Aircraft Carriers and transport ships (troops, supplies, fuel, weapons, etc.) than against escort ships ( Cruisers, Destroyers, Frigates).

In the case of a task force headed by an Aircraft Carrier would be the primary target of this anti-ship long-range missiles like the ASCM, while the escort ships (Cruisers, Destroyers, Frigates) would be the secondary targets either.

The same would have been occurred as the convoy or task forces in support for amphibious landing operation, while the transport ships would be the high-priority targets and the escort ships would be secondary targets,

The basic concept of this strategy from Soviet Union should allow to concentrate the most possible effort with ASCM against the high-priority targets (Aircraft Carriers, Transports) in order to cause heavy damage in those Aircraft Carriers, and/or to sink the transport, as well to saturate the air defenses and also the ECM( Electronic Counter Measures) and even the ECCM( Electronic Counter Counter Measures) capabilities from those escort ships.

This may appear like a contradiction, once the escort ships would be capable to shoot down the ASCM by SAM( Surface Air Missiles) and most likely by jamming the active radar seekers from ASCM, so it should make more sense those escort ships were classified as priority targets, after all it first missions should be eliminates the air defenses from the enemy, in sequence to reach the mains targets from adversary.

However each ASCM has been launched against an escort vessel would be also one less against an Aircraft Carriers or transports ships, beyond that the escort vessels should be a lot more difficult targets to hit in reason that are: smaller, faster and maneuverable in general than Aircraft Carriers and transports.

But the more important aspect from escort vessels that it has been equipped for long time with ECM and chaffs launchers, as well the air defenses in layers, or in this case of short range air defenses( SAM, CIWS) would be quite effective against large missiles as ASCM that could be fired directly against the escort vessels.

In the case of Aircraft Carriers could be heavily damaged by those ASCM, that would withdraw from combat for several months, as well would be needed several months to mobilize the resources lost in transport ships already sink, although those transport ships could be quickly replaced by other civilian ships, however the cargo ( troops, weapons, spare parts and others.) would take much long time to be replaced in the event of a war from major proportions.

Probably the Third War would be over long before that,, once most likely the Third War World should have been counted in numbers of weeks before it would ended in a cease-fire or a nuclear holocaust, in the perspective from Soviet Union.

The concept from missiles as AS 4 and AS 6 had been reflecting the Soviet Union's strategy since the 50's, but in the 80s the Soviet Union also began to consider escort vessels as high-priority targets when it were equipped with cruise missiles BGM 109 Tomahawk with nuclear or conventional warheads.

In reason of this new threat from BGM 109 Tomahank, the Soviet Union had started the development of more compact and less RCS( Radar Cross Section) anti ship missiles as the subsonic Kh 35 that would match the Harpoons and Sea Eagle, as well the supersonic Kh 31A that will be anti ship missiles with less range than Kh 35.

Besides the Kh 31A and Kh 35, the Soviet Union could have been also developing in the late 80s a new type of cruise missile equivalent to anti ship version of the BGM 109 Tomahawk from US, which it were designated as Kh 57 that would be used by Tu 22M3 in anti ship missions, as well as a new version from air-ballistic Kh 15/AS 16 that would be equipped with active radar and conventional warhead that also would be used by Tu 22M3.

Just to explain the basic difference was that while Tu 22M3 could employ two AS 4 as normal weapons load, both Kh 57 and Kh 15/AS 16 could be carried at to ten rounds without any restrains for the Tu 22M3, or even to complete the two AS 4 with more six rounds like the Kh 15/AS 16 in the internal bay as were used with the nuclear version from Kh 15/AS 16.

The development of the Kh 35 and Kh 31A has been interpreted by many in the West with something like reconnaissance of the technological gap from former Soviet Union (or even Russia today). Once that Kh 35 and Kh 31A in the 80's it were almost the same concept has been adopting by the West since the early 70's.

This were assumed in reason for those large missiles like ASCM( AS 4 and AS 6 ) would have been become obsolete in face from its new air defenses system Aegis SPY 1 and new SAM with vertical launches from new Cruiser and Destroyers.

There were any doubts that Cruisers and Destroyers had been equipped with Aegis SPY 1 and vertical launches would be more effective to defeat the larges ASCM, but at the same way would be quite effective to defeat the small class for anti ship missiles like the Harpoon or even the Tomahawk.

In fact the Soviet Union did not change its main strategy with the use of the large and supersonic ASCM like the : AS 4, AS 6 and others anti ship supersonic cruise missiles that would be fired by ships,submarines and even coastal defenses.

Otherwise it had chosen to complete those ASCM with the less RCS like the Kh 35 and Kh 31A, or even the Kh 15/AS 16 and Kh 57.These small anti ship missiles along with large ASCM could obtain more rounds against these new Cruisers and Destroyers and then to saturate its air defenses at same time to allow its large and supersonic ASCM could reach these main targets like Aircraft Carriers and Transport ships.

The Kh 35 and Kh 31A could be used by the Su 27M, Su 27IB( Su 34), MiG 29M, MiG 29K as well as the Su 24M already in service during the 80's.While the Kh 57 and the anti ship version of the Kh 15/AS 16 would be used by the Tu 22M3. The collapse from Soviet Union shutdown those plans from Kh 57 and Kh 15(anti ship version), as well as it has almost shutdown the plans from Kh 35 and Kh 31A.