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  • MadRat
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Aug 2006
    • 5032

    #21
    I always thought Tornado ADV was worthy of protecting vast tracks of glacial wasteland. Canada and Iceland would have been good places for it. Maybe even Australia. But then again F-14 or F-15 would have been even better.
    Go Huskers!

    Comment

    • Y-20 Bacon
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2013
      • 2176

      #22
      Originally posted by MadRat View Post
      I always thought Tornado ADV was worthy of protecting vast tracks of glacial wasteland. Canada and Iceland would have been good places for it. Maybe even Australia. But then again F-14 or F-15 would have been even better.
      you're not too far off.
      I just read a book:

      British Aircraft Corporation: A History
      By Stephen Skinner

      in which it states that the RAF actually preferred the F-15 to do the job! here I thought it was the F-14 but I was wrong.

      Comment

      • TooCool_12f
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Dec 2009
        • 3323

        #23
        I think it was always the F-15 on offer for exports... the, F-14, Iran set aside, was pretty much USN exclusive aircraft

        Comment

        • PhantomII
          Phantoms Phorever
          • Jan 2000
          • 8292

          #24
          Were the issues that plagued the Tornado F.2 strictly related to the radar or were there other issues on the airframe itself?
          Fox-4!

          Comment

          • Dazza
            Rhino Power!
            • Jan 2000
            • 1488

            #25
            The radar was the major issue, the engines also were upgraded in the change to the F.3, more powerful -104s were fitted. The airframe was a known quantity in that the RAF already had the same basic airframe in the GR.1, I'm not aware of any major issues with either the GR.1 or F.2/3 airframe...

            -Dazza
            Airliners.net

            Jetphotos.net

            Airfighters.com

            Comment

            • swerve
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jun 2005
              • 13612

              #26
              Originally posted by Dazza View Post
              The radar was the major issue, ...

              -Dazza
              Blue Circle.
              Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
              Justinian

              Comment

              • MSphere
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2010
                • 8983

                #27
                Originally posted by PhantomII View Post
                Were the issues that plagued the Tornado F.2 strictly related to the radar or were there other issues on the airframe itself?
                The main issue of the airframe was that it was too small for the ambitious range goal set for the AI24 radar (180+ km detection for bomber-sized targets). The nose diameter has dictated an array visibly smaller than the one of an APG-63. The radar was furthermore plagued by then-immature digital processing technology and has biten its designers in their a$$ once again later when it has doggedly resisted integration of AMRAAM as a replacement of Skyflash. The AMRAAM and the Foxhunter have hated each other so much that the CSP of the latter completely refused to provide mid-course updates which rendered the AIM-120 not a bit more effective than any SARH missile.

                One stiff-necked ba$tard, indeed

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                Last edited by MSphere; 29th September 2015, 22:28.

                Comment

                • Dazza
                  Rhino Power!
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 1488

                  #28
                  Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                  The AMRAAM and the Foxhunter have hated each other so much that the CSP of the latter completely refused to provide mid-course updates which rendered the AIM-120 not a bit more effective than any SARH missile.
                  This issue was eventually remedied though, and full AIM-120 integration was eventually achieved and could've been achieved much earlier had the MOD stumped up the money in the first place. ASRAAM also had integration problems but these too were also overcome.

                  -Dazza
                  Airliners.net

                  Jetphotos.net

                  Airfighters.com

                  Comment

                  • FBW
                    FBW
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3294

                    #29
                    Originally posted by Dazza View Post
                    This issue was eventually remedied though, and full AIM-120 integration was eventually achieved and could've been achieved much earlier had the MOD stumped up the money in the first place. ASRAAM also had integration problems but these too were also overcome.

                    -Dazza
                    Very true, the issue wasn't the fox hunter, which evolved from early teething troubles to be a top-notch radar. The issue was a penny wise, pound foolish decision to not equip F.3's with enough amraam launchers and not to integrate the datalink and IFF into the CSP which negated the best virtues of the AMRAAM. In retrospect, it seems foolish, but the RAF was thinking the Typhoon was just around the corner. In light of the delayed upgrades to the USAF F-15 fleet, or AM's delay of a F-104S replacement. These decisions were common in the 90's with the "peace dividend".

                    here is a doc explaining the issue from the UK defense forum 2000
                    https://www.google.com/search?client...aam+UK+m45.doc
                    Last edited by FBW; 30th September 2015, 01:04.

                    Comment

                    • MSphere
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2010
                      • 8983

                      #30
                      Originally posted by Dazza View Post
                      This issue was eventually remedied though, and full AIM-120 integration was eventually achieved and could've been achieved much earlier had the MOD stumped up the money in the first place. ASRAAM also had integration problems but these too were also overcome.
                      It came in through several versions and updates, yes. The whole AI24 lineage went from early B/W/Z versions to the "final" Stage I (also with Saudi ADVs) but at that time the fun has just begun.. Stage I+ AA lead to another "final" Stage II, then to AB with NCTR, then to 2G and 2H optimizations and that is still pre-AMRAAM times.

                      The AIM-120 came with the CSP version which finally lead to the AOP version with mid-course updates... and the final one was the FSP which integrated AIM-120C-5 and ASRAAM. Not an easy birth but the final result was a decent set, which has tried to approach the AWG-9 performance with the weight of roughly APG-63.
                      Last edited by MSphere; 30th September 2015, 06:12.

                      Comment

                      • Y-20 Bacon
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2013
                        • 2176

                        #31
                        Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                        The main issue of the airframe was that it was too small for the ambitious range goal set for the AI24 radar (180+ km detection for bomber-sized targets). The nose diameter has dictated an array visibly smaller than the one of an APG-63. The radar was furthermore plagued by then-immature digital processing technology and has biten its designers in their a$$ once again later when it has doggedly resisted integration of AMRAAM as a replacement of Skyflash. The AMRAAM and the Foxhunter have hated each other so much that the CSP of the latter completely refused to provide mid-course updates which rendered the AIM-120 not a bit more effective than any SARH missile.

                        One stiff-necked ba$tard, indeed

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]240834[/ATTACH]
                        thanks for that info. didn't realize how small it was (smaller than even the old F-18!).
                        far smaller than other interceptors of its time like F-14, Russian fox series or flagon series

                        I guess it is no surprise the Saudis and Italians were not so impressed with the radar range and maintainance issues associated with it.

                        Comment

                        • Y-20 Bacon
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2013
                          • 2176

                          #32
                          Originally posted by PhantomII View Post
                          Y-20, I'm not being elitist. I'm simply stating a fact. I've been on this forum for a very long time now, and I constantly see debates (if you wish to call them that.....normally they devolve into arguments and shouting matches) comparing one aircraft to another and much of the information presented is either inaccurate or flat out made-up to suit someone's personal tastes.
                          and yet you keep coming back. either it means you really love this forum or you're a masochist. either is fine

                          at the end of the day the f-14/15 and ADV question is relevant because 1. The RAF seriously considered them to meet the needs of intercepting Soviet bombers. 2. Saudis also ended up doing the same thing. In case you didn't know, they were an ADV operator. 3. I guess we can toss out the italians.. they thought the ADV would be easy to operate..didn't.. ended up throwing them away and going for the F-16s they rejected earlier

                          When I was much younger, I'm fairly certain I was guilty of that because I was ignorant to the more accurate information that is available (or not available as is often the case). As I result, I try not to make uninformed statements of things I'm unsure about.
                          when you were young, you had a hard on for slat intake jets like F-4, J-8, MiG-23 and would go off about how they're still relevant today.
                          you should meet PLA-MKII.. he's a nice young lad who has taken up your mantle, but instead opting for jh-7 and j-7s
                          Last edited by frankvw; 1st October 2015, 11:58. Reason: Edited for you. Frank.

                          Comment

                          • halloweene
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2012
                            • 4351

                            #33
                            Still... HAPPY 40th birthday TONKA!

                            Comment

                            • Robbiesmurf
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jul 2014
                              • 587

                              #34
                              MSphere, why is one of the two of your images reversed?

                              Comment

                              • MadRat
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Aug 2006
                                • 5032

                                #35
                                Tornado could pursue targets at low altitude speeds no other fighter could reach with a combat load. At least it got that right.
                                Go Huskers!

                                Comment

                                • MSphere
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Feb 2010
                                  • 8983

                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by Robbiesmurf View Post
                                  MSphere, why is one of the two of your images reversed?
                                  No idea, to be honest.. I have thought there were two of them so I have uploaded both only to find out that the latter one is just a reversed version of the former. So i have deleted it.. but it remained uploaded here..

                                  Comment

                                  • PhantomII
                                    Phantoms Phorever
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 8292

                                    #37
                                    and yet you keep coming back. either it means you really love this forum or you're a masochist. either is fine

                                    Wrong. I occasionally learn new things (hopefully that's why everyone comes here), but I avoid "Airplane A" vs. "Airplane B" threads for the reasons I listed above. Your opinions on me are just that......yours. They mean little to me aside from attempts to derail a thread.

                                    Anyways...

                                    Anyone else read the special? I'm especially curious on the opinions of those who know a fair amount about the aircraft. It felt to me like an excellent introduction as well as retrospective on the Tornado, both the program overall and the aircraft itself. The various customer nations seemed fairly evenly covered as well, which I thought added nice variety to the magazine.

                                    Oh and thanks to those who took part in the discussion on the Foxhunter...that pretty much cleared up my suspicions on the F.2 delays. The notion of the IDS having the ADV's stretched fuselage is certainly an interesting one. I'm not sure how often it occurred during their respective service lives, but DACT between F.3s & GR.1/GR.4's would be an interesting subject. Not so much to demonstrate the "superior aircraft", but just to see how much of a difference there was in how each flew and the tactics they used against one another. I'd assume the F.3 would've made a decent Soviet interceptor simulator (Foxbat, Foxhound, etc.) in some ways. I suppose I'll just have to seek out a former Tornado crew and ask them!
                                    Fox-4!

                                    Comment

                                    • Duggy
                                      Flight SIM Pilot
                                      • Mar 2012
                                      • 1142

                                      #38
                                      Enjoy
















                                      Comment

                                      • PhantomII
                                        Phantoms Phorever
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 8292

                                        #39
                                        Those photos are simply stunning! Thanks for sharing!

                                        The last one is interesting......looks like the Litening pod is mounted on the centerline hardpoint. (Any info on whether that's the current fit for Luftwaffe Tornados?

                                        I guess it's the OCD in me, but I've never understood why targeting pods often seem to be located in places that would physically limit carriage of other stores. Take for example the RAF's GR.4's....if the targeting pod is mounted on the centerline doesn't that leave room for more Paveway IV's or Brimstone racks? Why mount it on one of the forward positions on the larger two fuselage pylons?

                                        Maybe they prefer to have the pod on the side of the jet that orbits are carried out on (direction wise)? (totally guessing here as I honestly have no idea)
                                        Fox-4!

                                        Comment

                                        • Duggy
                                          Flight SIM Pilot
                                          • Mar 2012
                                          • 1142

                                          #40
                                          Thanks - A few more.




                                          OOPS



                                          Comment

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