Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

J-11D or Su-35 for Pakistan

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Y-20 Bacon
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2013
    • 2176

    #21
    Originally posted by haavarla View Post
    If you knew the very back ground history of J-11, you would also know that any export of J-11 is prohibited. Its eighter Russian Flankers or some other two engines jets.
    yes but does it include the J-11D and J-15?

    Comment

    • Y-20 Bacon
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2013
      • 2176

      #22
      Originally posted by MSphere View Post
      But you're slowly starting to lose it and your responses tend to become overprotective in nature, without any proven facts supporting it. .
      indeed, Andy is getting a bit over-sensitive and snapping at things that don't fit within a certain narrative (usually those pushed by the Chinafanboys)

      Comment

      • QuantumFX
        What?
        • Dec 2008
        • 1831

        #23
        I don't know how the J-11D even comes into the picture. But then again, it was our lovable hamburger who posed the question . As far as we know there is just a single prototype. It'll probably be at least a few years before it hits full production. If the rumors are right (see below) it is going to be the biggest upgrade. Perhaps J-10A to J-10B like upgrade. So it'll probably not be an easy move. And if the rumored 14,500 kgf engine misfires with MTBO less than 50 then............ And simply don't forget that no PRC built flanker has ever been exported. IMHO, the Russians will keep quiet as long as PRC does not export.

        But in contrast the Su-35 is quite mature with ~40 in service. With exception of not having an AESA (not that the PESA Irbis-E isn't formidable), the Su-35 will offer everything the J-11D might offer plus more, including a powerful and reliable 14,500 kgf engine with TVC integrated.

        So, simply there is no comparison here. But, burger boy, you already knew that Off-course whether Pakistan will be offered the Su-35 is completely different thing.

        This is what Hui Tong has to say about the J-11D - Link


        Last edited by QuantumFX; 26th September 2015, 06:36.

        Comment

        • MSphere
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2010
          • 8983

          #24
          Originally posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
          yes but does it include the J-11D and J-15?
          Hard to say, contract-wise, but without Russian consent it would be considered at least unethical.

          Comment

          • Y-20 Bacon
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2013
            • 2176

            #25
            Originally posted by MSphere View Post
            Hard to say, contract-wise, but without Russian consent it would be considered at least unethical.
            I guess a question would be, at where do we draw the line between Flanker variant vs new aircraft.
            Chinese have a tendency to do gradual evolutions rather than a big revolution.
            their entire tank line from the Type 99 are all descended from gradual updates of the basic T-55 tank frame, but no one is going to say the Type 99 is a T-55 variant.

            Comment

            • haavarla
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Dec 2008
              • 6695

              #26
              Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
              Well, let me ask another 'silly' question - given that the airframe screams 'Flanker', for every J-11 that is produced at Shenyang, is a royalty paid to Russia?


              Engine contracts for the AL-31? I imagine they'll all be allowed to lapse without replacement as the WS-10 enters widespread service. Which other deal exists, which if cancelled would lead to China paying a heavier price than Russia?


              As long as its powered by the AL-31, it obviously not viable as an export option.
              About Royalties, I think this was addressed many years ago. Shengyang is a state owned company. The Chinese MoD paid Sukhoi a hefty figure for license-production J-11.
              Now does anyone here think Sukhoi did not have the forsight to ink down a few protocols??

              China can NEVER export any Flanker.
              They have their export, JF-17, with Russian engines..
              I think China are in a hurry to leave both the Russian Flanker and engines behind..

              Something easier said than done..
              (The Su-35 deal looming behind the curtain)
              Last edited by haavarla; 26th September 2015, 09:39.
              Thanks

              Comment

              • MSphere
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2010
                • 8983

                #27
                Originally posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
                I guess a question would be, at where do we draw the line between Flanker variant vs new aircraft.
                Chinese have a tendency to do gradual evolutions rather than a big revolution.
                I have tried to compare the available images of unpainted J-11Bs and Su-27/30s. Looks like Chinese have, indeed, constructed new wing and tail fin sections, as well as horizontal stabilators made out of composites (?). They look every bit the same (except the green color) but have riveting on different places.. most likely they can save few hundred pounds of weight. Does that qualify as a new design to you? To me not...

                Click image for larger version

Name:	J-11B primer6.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	61.9 KB
ID:	3664336 Click image for larger version

Name:	Su-30SM cn 1203 armed.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	145.9 KB
ID:	3664337
                Last edited by MSphere; 26th September 2015, 10:54.

                Comment

                • QuantumFX
                  What?
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 1831

                  #28
                  Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                  I have tried to compare the available images of unpainted J-11Bs and Su-27/30s. Looks like Chinese have, indeed, constructed new wing and tail fin sections, as well as horizontal stabilators made out of composites (?). They look every bit the same (except the green color) but have riveting on different places.. most likely they can save few hundred pounds of weight. Does that qualify as a new design to you? To me not...

                  *
                  J-11B weight reduction is said to be 700 kgs compared to the Su-27SK along with some frontal RCS reduction. There were specs shown, but these were CCTV screen grabs:



                  Comment

                  • CoffeeBean
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jun 2011
                    • 404

                    #29
                    Why will Pakistan want Flanker? It does not have DSI.

                    Comment

                    • Y-20 Bacon
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2013
                      • 2176

                      #30
                      Originally posted by haavarla View Post
                      About Royalties, I think this was addressed many years ago. Shengyang is a state owned company. The Chinese MoD paid Sukhoi a hefty figure for license-production J-11.
                      Now does anyone here think Sukhoi did not have the forsight to ink down a few protocols??

                      China can NEVER export any Flanker.
                      They have their export, JF-17, with Russian engines..
                      I think China are in a hurry to leave both the Russian Flanker and engines behind..

                      Something easier said than done..
                      (The Su-35 deal looming behind the curtain)
                      what about the carrier version.
                      they went around Sukhoi and reversed engineered a Ukrainian aircraft instead.

                      Comment

                      • fatman17
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Apr 2009
                        • 34

                        #31
                        J-11D makes a lot of sense for Pakistan to pursue.
                        will be cheaper than the SU35
                        if Russia has no objection over the sale of RD93, precedence has been established to sell the AL31F direct or via China.
                        no Indian hue and cry.
                        geo-political changes, SCO, resumption of military sales by Russia to Pakistan etc. etc.
                        China could allow TOT to assemble the J-11D in Pakistan.

                        Comment

                        • Deino
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 4224

                          #32
                          Originally posted by fatman17 View Post
                          J-11D makes a lot of sense for Pakistan to pursue.
                          will be cheaper than the SU35
                          if Russia has no objection over the sale of RD93, precedence has been established to sell the AL31F direct or via China.
                          no Indian hue and cry.
                          geo-political changes, SCO, resumption of military sales by Russia to Pakistan etc. etc.
                          China could allow TOT to assemble the J-11D in Pakistan.
                          Sorry guys ... and even if in a few minutues I will surely get my punishment !

                          Why keeping on these stupid questions ? (it's like Nepal buying a Klingon Bird of Prey, what's better to defend ?)

                          China will never, never sell the J-11D nor any other J-11-version to Pakistan. That's a fact and even if there are surely different opinions on wheather CHina illegally copied the Flanker or simply added own parts besides a Russian non-agreement (but then still payed for them). they will strictly obey the contract in non-exporting an Flanker.

                          Even more the J-11D is so far the flag-ship of China's Flanker-development and if it will ever procurred in larger numbers the PLAAF and PLANAF will get then first and all.

                          So this discussion is simply a bit lame ...

                          Deino
                          ...

                          He was my North, my South, my East and West,
                          My working week and my Sunday rest,
                          My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
                          I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

                          The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
                          Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
                          Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
                          For nothing now can ever come to any good.
                          -------------------------------------------------
                          W.H.Auden (1945)

                          Comment

                          • Y-20 Bacon
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2013
                            • 2176

                            #33
                            Originally posted by Deino View Post
                            Sorry guys ... and even if in a few minutues I will surely get my punishment !

                            Why keeping on these stupid questions ? (it's like Nepal buying a Klingon Bird of Prey, what's better to defend ?)

                            China will never, never sell the J-11D nor any other J-11-version to Pakistan. That's a fact and even if there are surely different opinions on wheather CHina illegally copied the Flanker or simply added own parts besides a Russian non-agreement (but then still payed for them). they will strictly obey the contract in non-exporting an Flanker.

                            Even more the J-11D is so far the flag-ship of China's Flanker-development and if it will ever procurred in larger numbers the PLAAF and PLANAF will get then first and all.

                            So this discussion is simply a bit lame ...

                            Deino
                            1. do you have any proof of this? last i recalled all it was was a bunch of assumptions. any actual links or articles? there's tons of articles on the Russian side crying foul. Other wise you have no proof.
                            2. if it does exist, does it cover non license built versions like j-11d or j15 or 16?

                            Comment

                            • nirav
                              MeTaL hEaD
                              • May 2004
                              • 529

                              #34
                              Originally posted by fatman17 View Post
                              J-11D makes a lot of sense for Pakistan to pursue.
                              will be cheaper than the SU35
                              if Russia has no objection over the sale of RD93, precedence has been established to sell the AL31F direct or via China.
                              no Indian hue and cry.
                              geo-political changes, SCO, resumption of military sales by Russia to Pakistan etc. etc.
                              China could allow TOT to assemble the J-11D in Pakistan.
                              The Chinese refused to sell even the J10A to Pakistan. iirc there were quite a few statements by highers up in PAf about 36 J10, then it was the B version and eventually it fizzled.
                              What makes you think China will offer J-11D !? Also TOT ?!

                              Comment

                              • Buran
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 504

                                #35
                                Originally posted by nirav View Post
                                The Chinese refused to sell even the J10A to Pakistan. iirc there were quite a few statements by highers up in PAf about 36 J10, then it was the B version and eventually it fizzled.
                                What makes you think China will offer J-11D !? Also TOT ?!
                                If China allegedly provided Pakistan with design of a working nuclear warhead and full ToT on multiple ballistic missiles, including post separation attitude correction system what is the issue with selling some fighter jets?

                                Comment

                                • nirav
                                  MeTaL hEaD
                                  • May 2004
                                  • 529

                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by Buran View Post
                                  If China allegedly provided Pakistan with design of a working nuclear warhead and full ToT on multiple ballistic missiles, including post separation attitude correction system what is the issue with selling some fighter jets?
                                  Are you saying Pakistans Nuclear weapons and missile capability is based on Chinese designs ? That Pakistan was NOT capable of manufacturing the nukes and Ballistic missiles ?

                                  IF what you allege is true, the J10 must be one remarkable fighter, that the Chinese gave away nuke and missile designs to Pakistan but NOT the fighter jet.

                                  Comment

                                  • Buran
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Oct 2008
                                    • 504

                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by nirav View Post
                                    Are you saying Pakistans Nuclear weapons and missile capability is based on Chinese designs ? That Pakistan was NOT capable of manufacturing the nukes and Ballistic missiles ?

                                    IF what you allege is true, the J10 must be one remarkable fighter, that the Chinese gave away nuke and missile designs to Pakistan but NOT the fighter jet.
                                    Don't know why that's news to you, the entire world have known about it for years. China also didn't give Pakistanis J8, JH7 and multiple other aircrafts that doesn't mean there is something special about these. Pakistan gets what they need and can afford. Just today both countries agreed on a $5billion deal for 8 submarines, most of this would be through soft loans and grants.

                                    Comment

                                    • CoffeeBean
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jun 2011
                                      • 404

                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by nirav View Post
                                      The Chinese refused to sell even the J10A to Pakistan. iirc there were quite a few statements by highers up in PAf about 36 J10, then it was the B version and eventually it fizzled.
                                      Perhaps China needs Israeli permission to sell J10 or there is just not sufficient production capacity to sell it. In end Pak ends up with a low grade unwanted fighter.

                                      Comment

                                      Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                      Collapse

                                       

                                      Working...
                                      X