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  • blackadam
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • May 2013
    • 229

    The truth about the F-22

    We have lived with the propaganda and hype about the power the F-22 too long. From year 2000 to 2012.

    1. F-22 is not a stealth aircraft world number one. F-35 has RCS smaller than F-22

    2. The F-22 is not the aircraft avionics world number one. F-35, Typhoon and Rafale have even better technology on F-22's systems

    3. The F-22 is not the most maneuverable aircraft world. Su-27/30/35, Rafale, F-15C, F-16C/E, Typhoon even J-10/11 are the maneuverability aircraft F-22 higher

    4. F-22 in the duel with Typhoon, EA-18G, Rafale ....! F-22 are intended to fail.

    5. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation no HMDS system, Typhoon, Rafale even MiG-35 are equipped with this system.

    6. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation without using materials RAM

    7. F-22 is struggling to upgrade avionics and weapons. Expected in the period 2017-2020, the F-22 can use the AIM-9X, AIM-120D and HMDS was put on equipment.

    8. F-22 is a 5th generation aircraft first encounter many accidents.

    9. F-22 does not have the ability to use anti-ship weapon.

    10. The maximum speed of the F-22 is inferior to the MiG-21 and F-4

    11. Until the present time, the F-22 only use AIM-9M, AIM-120C5/6 (unknown F-22 can use version AIM-12C7)

    http://aviationweek.com/blog/f-35-stealthier-f-22
    http://www.dailytech.com/F35+Stealth...ticle21321.htm
    http://www.janes.com/article/51375/f...ewinder-firing
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...met-by-413962/
  • Y-20 Bacon
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2013
    • 2176

    #2
    The Chinese would say

    F-22 sux cuz no DSI

    Comment

    • Zaltys
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Oct 2012
      • 15

      #3
      The truth is finally here! Please, inform us what is the best fighter in world and lets close this argument forever.

      Comment

      • topspeed
        Get on uppah !
        • Jan 2009
        • 2659

        #4
        It could be the xp-77 "mighty mouse" ?

        Stealth, cheap...and high landing speed.
        Attached Files
        If it looks good, it will fly good !
        -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


        http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

        Comment

        • MSphere
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2010
          • 8983

          #5
          1. F-22 is not a stealth aircraft world number one. F-35 has RCS smaller than F-22
          I have serious doubts about this.. The Raptor is the only fighter giving emphasis on rear aspect RCS reduction. There might be discrete angles where the F-35 has smaller RCS, but overall value is hardly anywhere near the F-22.

          2. The F-22 is not the aircraft avionics world number one. F-35, Typhoon and Rafale have even better technology on F-22's systems
          That's not exactly news. The architecture of Raptor's systems is two and half decades old

          3. The F-22 is not the most maneuverable aircraft world. Su-27/30/35, Rafale, F-15C, F-16C/E, Typhoon even J-10/11 are the maneuverability aircraft F-22 higher
          BS, IMHO.. The F-15 or J-10 don't even come close.. I believe that Raptor excels in hi-speed maneuverability over pretty much anything, at low speeds it's debatable.

          4. F-22 in the duel with Typhoon, EA-18G, Rafale ....! F-22 are intended to fail.
          Is that an argument?

          5. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation no HMDS system, Typhoon, Rafale even MiG-35 are equipped with this system.
          Last time I checked, Rafale did not have any HMDS.

          6. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation without using materials RAM
          F-22s fly without RAM? Who told you that?

          7. F-22 is struggling to upgrade avionics and weapons. Expected in the period 2017-2020, the F-22 can use the AIM-9X, AIM-120D and HMDS was put on equipment.
          That's true.. Even worse, the various Blocks are not directly compatible with each other, the earlier ones being harder to upgrade than the later ones.

          8. F-22 is a 5th generation aircraft first encounter many accidents.
          How many is many accidents? There is the well known asphyxia problem, what else?

          9. F-22 does not have the ability to use anti-ship weapon.
          I don't think it was ever intended to use one...

          10. The maximum speed of the F-22 is inferior to the MiG-21 and F-4
          Irrelevant.. What matters is the range at the max. cruise speed.

          11. Until the present time, the F-22 only use AIM-9M, AIM-120C5/6 (unknown F-22 can use version AIM-12C7)
          True.. And Su-35S only can use R-73 and R-77 and R-27s. Rafale only can use MICA and Magic. What's wrong with that?

          Comment

          • bring_it_on
            2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
            • Jun 2004
            • 12480

            #6
            F-22 Aim-9X capability has been tested and is going to be incorporated over the next few years.. The HMS issue is also being tackled and hopefully the F-22 will have an HMS over the next few years as well. Aim-120D should also follow in the next block that is currently being developed. But did we seriously need a new thread for all this?

            http://www.janes.com/article/51375/f...ewinder-firing
            Old radar types never die; they just phased array

            Comment

            • Broccoli
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jul 2012
              • 272

              #7
              OP is good example why this and many other forums should have age limit.

              Comment

              • Sintra
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Aug 2007
                • 3849

                #8
                Originally posted by Broccoli View Post
                OP is good example why this and many other forums should have age limit.
                X2
                sigpic

                Comment

                • Andraxxus
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Sep 2012
                  • 954

                  #9
                  Most points are BS and well answered by MSphere so I will not waste my time on them but;

                  2. The F-22 is not the aircraft avionics world number one. F-35, Typhoon and Rafale have even better technology on F-22's systems
                  That's not exactly news. The architecture of Raptor's systems is two and half decades old
                  Better technology, yes, but better specifications? For example comparing two Russian radars -to avoid blind chestpounding-, Zhuk-AE and Zaslon-M: Zaslon-M excels in all parameters, despite its more than 30 years older. In the same analogy, APG-77 is physically much larger than RBE2 or CAPTOR to make up for its any technological "deficiency".

                  3. The F-22 is not the most maneuverable aircraft world. Su-27/30/35, Rafale, F-15C, F-16C/E, Typhoon even J-10/11 are the maneuverability aircraft F-22 higher
                  BS, IMHO.. The F-15 or J-10 don't even come close.. I believe that Raptor excels in hi-speed maneuverability over pretty much anything, at low speeds it's debatable.
                  F-22 will surely have better maneuverability than F-16/J-10/Rafale/Typhoon especially with fuel for long range flights and at high altitude for air superiority missions. Still for same mission, I expect Su-27 and F-15 to offer better overall maneuverability though.

                  Comment

                  • Robbiesmurf
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jul 2014
                    • 587

                    #10
                    Originally posted by blackadam View Post
                    We have lived with the propaganda and hype about the power the F-22 too long. From year 2000 to 2012.

                    1. F-22 is not a stealth aircraft world number one. F-35 has RCS smaller than F-22

                    2. The F-22 is not the aircraft avionics world number one. F-35, Typhoon and Rafale have even better technology on F-22's systems

                    3. The F-22 is not the most maneuverable aircraft world. Su-27/30/35, Rafale, F-15C, F-16C/E, Typhoon even J-10/11 are the maneuverability aircraft F-22 higher

                    4. F-22 in the duel with Typhoon, EA-18G, Rafale ....! F-22 are intended to fail.

                    5. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation no HMDS system, Typhoon, Rafale even MiG-35 are equipped with this system.

                    6. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation without using materials RAM

                    7. F-22 is struggling to upgrade avionics and weapons. Expected in the period 2017-2020, the F-22 can use the AIM-9X, AIM-120D and HMDS was put on equipment.

                    8. F-22 is a 5th generation aircraft first encounter many accidents.

                    9. F-22 does not have the ability to use anti-ship weapon.

                    10. The maximum speed of the F-22 is inferior to the MiG-21 and F-4

                    11. Until the present time, the F-22 only use AIM-9M, AIM-120C5/6 (unknown F-22 can use version AIM-12C7)

                    http://aviationweek.com/blog/f-35-stealthier-f-22
                    http://www.dailytech.com/F35+Stealth...ticle21321.htm
                    http://www.janes.com/article/51375/f...ewinder-firing
                    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...met-by-413962/
                    Are you here to provoke a reaction for a laugh?

                    Comment

                    • snafu352
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2008
                      • 2250

                      #11
                      Somebody doesn't understand the difference between their opinion and verifiable facts.
                      The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
                      Bertrand Russell

                      Comment

                      • Jessmo23
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2015
                        • 572

                        #12
                        Is school out?

                        Comment

                        • MSphere
                          Senior Member
                          • Feb 2010
                          • 8983

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Andraxxus View Post
                          Better technology, yes, but better specifications? For example comparing two Russian radars -to avoid blind chestpounding-, Zhuk-AE and Zaslon-M: Zaslon-M excels in all parameters, despite its more than 30 years older. In the same analogy, APG-77 is physically much larger than RBE2 or CAPTOR to make up for its any technological "deficiency".
                          I've had mainly processing power on my mind. But it's a fair point..

                          Originally posted by Andraxxus View Post
                          F-22 will surely have better maneuverability than F-16/J-10/Rafale/Typhoon especially with fuel for long range flights and at high altitude for air superiority missions. Still for same mission, I expect Su-27 and F-15 to offer better overall maneuverability though.
                          I have never found the (low-speed) maneuvrability of the F-15 as too impressive.. The F-22, OTOH does pretty much the same things as latest Sukhois love to do..

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1mO0aTJp5w

                          Comment

                          • Vnomad
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • May 2011
                            • 2859

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Andraxxus View Post
                            F-22 will surely have better maneuverability than F-16/J-10/Rafale/Typhoon especially with fuel for long range flights and at high altitude for air superiority missions. Still for same mission, I expect Su-27 and F-15 to offer better overall maneuverability though.
                            Maneuverability is a rather nebulous term. Depends to a great extent on the flight regime. At transonic and supersonic regime the only aircraft that can match the F-22 will be the PAK FA, with a slicked off EF being the next best thing.

                            At lower speeds its an open field - MiG-29, Rafale, SH, F-35 all fairly competitive. But the F-22 will still be better than the baseline Su-27 and far better than all variants of the F-15.

                            Comment

                            • Andraxxus
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Sep 2012
                              • 954

                              #15
                              "Low speed" is relative; If you are talking about supermaneuverability than yes, F-15 lacks in that area. However other than safety and controllability, TVC has zero contribution to actual turn performance.

                              What I consider "low speed" is below M1.0; ie which should involve 99,9% of the dogfighting maneuverability. This -irrelevant of design choices- is also the maximum maneuverability of the aircraft. Anything from P-51 to MiG-31 will achieve its highest sustained turn rates below transonic and F-22 Typhoon etc is no exception. With supersonic speeds both lift capability of the wing degrade and drag increase. There is no way around that.

                              So when people claim F-22 Typhoon etc will have better "high speed" maneuverability than F-15/Su-27. This will prove correct in only two scenarios:

                              a) F-22 has better turn performance even at subsonic speeds, and it remains better than F-15/Su-27 at supersonic. This I find unlikely, given how unimpressive it is at airshows, and some basic numbers like T/W Wing loading etc doesn't just add up.
                              -or-
                              b) F-22 has less degredation in lift or thrust, or less increase in drag, compared to Su-27 or F-15.
                              Maybe, maybe not, like I've said in my previous posts about this subject, I don't have anything to prove/disprove anything, but if you list F-22's aerodynamic features one by one and compare it with Su-27/F-15, it really doesn't have anything to explain the super-duper maneuverability claims.

                              Comment

                              • Andraxxus
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Sep 2012
                                • 954

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
                                At transonic and supersonic regime the only aircraft that can match the F-22 will be the PAK FA, with a slicked off EF being the next best thing.
                                ....
                                But the F-22 will still be better than the baseline Su-27 and far better than all variants of the F-15.
                                Based on what exactly?

                                Comment

                                • Marcellogo
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jun 2014
                                  • 1838

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                                  I've had mainly processing power on my mind. But it's a fair point..


                                  I have never found the (low-speed) maneuvrability of the F-15 as too impressive.. The F-22, OTOH does pretty much the same things as latest Sukhois love to do..

                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1mO0aTJp5w
                                  The question about radar is another byproduct of a certain emphasys about AESA superiority over previous systems.
                                  Someone genuinely think that having an AESA antenna would made any radar automatically superior to the previous ones.
                                  Well, it is not like so, even putting the best antenna available on it wouldn't make a F-5 or MiG 21 (and F-16 is not much better) size radar better to the AGW-9 on the F-14, neither to mention the actual PESA radar on the Mig-31 or the Su-35.
                                  Changing an antenna with AESA modules would certainly better radar performance of a given radar, but even a Bars radar with it on wouldn't be superior to a PESA IRBIS, like the proposed ones for the F-16 wouldn't surpass the Typoon's one. .
                                  Last edited by Marcellogo; 24th September 2015, 08:02.

                                  Comment

                                  • Vnomad
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • May 2011
                                    • 2859

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                                    I have serious doubts about this.. The Raptor is the only fighter giving emphasis on rear aspect RCS reduction. There might be discrete angles where the F-35 has smaller RCS, but overall value is hardly anywhere near the F-22.
                                    While the F-22 is stealthier from the rear aspect, the other claim is much harder to verify.

                                    Comment

                                    • Vnomad
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • May 2011
                                      • 2859

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Andraxxus View Post
                                      Based on what exactly?
                                      Thrust to weight ratios. Empirical observations vis a vis drag. But more importantly, details that come through from test pilots, squadron pilots, exercises, etc. But I admit it is a general impression rather than a conclusion based on hard numbers.

                                      Comment

                                      • Andraxxus
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Sep 2012
                                        • 954

                                        #20
                                        F-22 doesn't have better T/W than F-15 or Su-27, that is assuming 35000 pound class DO means 35000 pound class as some disagree. As for maneuverability, I had written a thing or two about this in PAK-FA thread, I didn't go further as it was OT.

                                        Originally posted by Andraxxus View Post
                                        ........
                                        unfortunately, an anectode is hardly an evidence of anything. In mere 3 second google search, I can quote an F-16 pilot, trash talk MiG-29's dogfight ability, and a MiG-29G pilot who says just the opposite.
                                        ........
                                        Subjectively, IMHO, F-15 looks more impressive and powerful than F-22; It completes 360 turns better, accelerates better; it even rolls equally good.
                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-4EwvGVYxE
                                        ........
                                        OK, comparing F-22's 3,7G achieved sustained turn at 30000 feet at M0,9 to F-15A at 50% fuel flight manual data. F-15A can pull;
                                        4,3Gs when clean,
                                        3,7Gs with 4xAIM-7, 4xAIM-9 and CL tank pylon;
                                        3,5G with 4xAIM-7, 4xAIM-9 and CL EF tank.
                                        3,1G with 4x AIM-7, 4xAIM-9, CFT, Cl tank pylon, and 100% internal fuel.

                                        F-16 at DI=50 can pull 3,26Gs at same altitude/speed @26000lbs (roughly equal to 6 AAMs and 50% fuel)

                                        There goes another number vs. number comparison that does not support F-22's claimed superior kinematics.
                                        ............
                                        Ok, I've gone too much off-topic perhaps I should keep quiet.


                                        I was referring to F-22's demonstrated maneuverability as quoted in KPP as 3,7G at 30k feet M0,9, which I assumed with 50% fuel (as its the most reasonable assumption)
                                        Last edited by Andraxxus; 23rd September 2015, 18:26.

                                        Comment

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