By: lukos
- 2nd May 2015 at 10:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm a bit surprised noone really took notice of this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]237197[/ATTACH]
Swapping the Stormshadows with fuel tanks and this looks like a solid loadout. Pretty much what the Tornadoes carried in Libya times 2 plus Meteors. Now the question is: just a mockup or really in development ?
Seems to all be included in this new update. Of course the CFTs will be needed to make full use of the Storm Shadow. Interestingly the Storm Shadow MLU is due to introduce a 2-way datalink and anti-ship capability too. Very useful upgrades, concentrate on the upgrades and the bids will win themselves, shame that wasn't the philosophy from the start.
By: lukos
- 2nd May 2015 at 10:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is quite alot that's being said by "sources". One only needs to think about such a claim and its implications. This one is definitely a mere.
There are obviously some flight conditions where stabilising the aircraft will take precedence, for obvious reasons, but it's potentially possible heading into a BVR encounter in stable flight. Heh, don't know.
By: mrmalaya
- 2nd May 2015 at 11:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm a bit surprised noone really took notice of this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]237197[/ATTACH]
Swapping the Stormshadows with fuel tanks and this looks like a solid loadout. Pretty much what the Tornadoes carried in Libya times 2 plus Meteors. Now the question is: just a mockup or really in development ?
I'm always sceptical of these mock ups. That said if you take fuel instead of cruise missiles then that is plenty of useful hardware.
If you compare to this layout we are now looking at more precision strike than ever
[ATTACH=CONFIG]237203[/ATTACH]
Attachments
New
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos
- 2nd May 2015 at 12:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Swap the Paveway IVs for another 3 Brimstones and you're looking at taking out a dozen tanks, IFVs, APCs, artillery pieces or SAM sites from up to 60km away in a single mission. It's a moderately effective SEAD/DEAD package as well as a precision strike package. SPEAR will be another game changer. I think that the next few years will see the Typhoon undergo massive development, as the Tornado is phased out:
Already funded for integration in P3E
CFTs;
Storm Shadow MLU (anti-ship capability);
Brimstone II, anti-tank and DEAD capability, up to 18;
Paveway IV dual racks, up to 12 in total;
ASRAAM upgrade (unspecified, based on CAMM?);
Meteor;
DASS upgrade;
Striker II helmet;
AESA radar (Captor-E).
Soon after 2018 - funded for development?
SPEAR quad racks.
By: Aurel
- 2nd May 2015 at 14:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
6 Brimstone and 4 PW IV is exactly twice what the Tornadoes carried over Libya. Plus the option for 4 BVR missiles. That's good enough for me. Can someone identify the dual carrier ? Couldn't find any detailed info on it.
New
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos
- 2nd May 2015 at 14:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that's a new enhancement in P3E too. There's also a common quad rack in development for the F-35 and Typhoon.
By: eagle
- 2nd May 2015 at 16:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Already funded for integration in P3E
CFTs;
Storm Shadow MLU (anti-ship capability);
Brimstone II, anti-tank and DEAD capability, up to 18;
Paveway IV dual racks, up to 12 in total;
ASRAAM upgrade (unspecified, based on CAMM?);
Meteor;
DASS upgrade;
Striker II helmet;
AESA radar (Captor-E).
Do you have a source?
The twin rack surely look like a mock-up to me. And it isn't a new proposal, anyone remember this one:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]237216[/ATTACH]
Attachments
New
Posts: 8,850
By: MSphere
- 3rd May 2015 at 00:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It says it has RF cyberwarfare and both active and passive detection/tracking capabilities, which is more than can be said for RBE2-AA.
Nowhere does it say it already has them..
Your comment wasn't exactly related either, just something that put you in bad company, e.g. Saddam Hussein.
:highly_amused: Basement level of argumentation has just found its new definition..
Not every test pushes the absolute limit in terms of simulating the greatest imaginable enemy threat. Some training scenarios in the last decade have had fighters mimicking 3rd generation fighter enemies. So in that particular case, you get left with a situation where a mechanically scanned radar, a PESA, an AESA, or even an IRST system ticks the box.
In other words: NAVY took the new radar, put it under some ridiculously useless test conditions so that they can claim AESA sucks? :highly_amused:
It's plain to see. The immediate belief in the Rafale's whole electronic stealth BS over in the F-35 thread. I see people willing to believe any Rafale hocus-pocus claim ever made, like the recent BS about the AESA RBE2 having a >100% increase in range over the PESA, putting it on par with an APG-77 based on RBE2 PESA range claims. Yeah, that's right, the RBE2-AA is apparently 8 times more efficient than an APG-77 relative to its size. Pffft.
I can only repeat myself - show me where I have ever claimed any of these... Good luck searching..
By: Scorpion82
- 3rd May 2015 at 06:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Swap the Paveway IVs for another 3 Brimstones and you're looking at taking out a dozen tanks, IFVs, APCs, artillery pieces or SAM sites from up to 60km away in a single mission. It's a moderately effective SEAD/DEAD package as well as a precision strike package. SPEAR will be another game changer. I think that the next few years will see the Typhoon undergo massive development, as the Tornado is phased out:
Already funded for integration in P3E
CFTs;
Storm Shadow MLU (anti-ship capability);
Brimstone II, anti-tank and DEAD capability, up to 18;
Paveway IV dual racks, up to 12 in total;
ASRAAM upgrade (unspecified, based on CAMM?);
Meteor;
DASS upgrade;
Striker II helmet;
AESA radar (Captor-E).
Soon after 2018 - funded for development?
SPEAR quad racks.
Lukos stop talking nonsense! The only not weapon related changes as part of P3E are avionics reliability improvements.
Captor-E is funded under a separate contract, Striker II at best a BC and don't expect too much from the number of weapons the aircraft will be cleared to carry!
Furthermore changing/improving the integration of weapons does not necessarily entail changes to the weapons itself.
New
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos
- 3rd May 2015 at 08:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lukos stop talking nonsense! The only not weapon related changes as part of P3E are avionics reliability improvements.
Captor-E is funded under a separate contract, Striker II at best a BC and don't expect too much from the number of weapons the aircraft will be cleared to carry!
Furthermore changing/improving the integration of weapons does not necessarily entail changes to the weapons itself.
Sorry Scorpion, that was what I seemed to make of this.
The latest support to self-protection will however originate from the new aesa radar which is to replace the Captor system, providing in a spiralled programme with passive, active and cyberwarfare RF capabilities.
:highly_amused: Basement level of argumentation has just found its new definition..
The dictionary has a picture of your name and avatar.
In other words: NAVY took the new radar, put it under some ridiculously useless test conditions so that they can claim AESA sucks? :highly_amused:
Maybe they tested it on the sort of mission they actually tend to execute these days, rather than WWIII. Not every test is WWIII-based.
I can only repeat myself - show me where I have ever claimed any of these... Good luck searching..
Go look on the Rafale thread at the sort of crap being spouted.
By: mrmalaya
- 3rd May 2015 at 13:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just reading the eurofighter pr, I think it remains to be seen what real weapons are going to be hung from the real life aircraft. The list:
The Phase 3 Enhancement contract is scheduled for delivery in 2017. All four core nations will work on flight control and avionics and the contract will centre round a scheduled programme of weapon testing, the development and testing of flight control systems, and finally store clearing and store release testing. The initial fit for the Brimstone 2 missiles on the Eurofighter will see two launchers fitted to the outboard pylons of the Eurofighter each carrying three Brimstone 2 missiles.
"The full swing-role, multi-role weapons compliment on the Eurofighter could now include a mix of: six Brimstone 2 missiles; up to six Paveway IV bombs, two long-range Storm Shadow missiles, four Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missiles and either two IRIS-T or two ASRAAM heat-seeking missiles."
.....doesnt include fuel tanks so cannot be seen as a realistic weapon carriage configuration.
New
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos
- 3rd May 2015 at 14:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know that all Tranche 3 aircraft have provisions for CFTs.
By: mrmalaya
- 3rd May 2015 at 14:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes I agree. The RAF however are not making much noise about that capability (possibly because of internal politics pre SDSR) and no one else is bothered to my knowledge.
Storm shadow needs CFT however.
New
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos
- 3rd May 2015 at 14:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes I agree. The RAF however are not making much noise about that capability (possibly because of internal politics pre SDSR) and no one else is bothered to my knowledge.
Storm shadow needs CFT however.
Well it's debatable. Storm Shadow has a range of 300nm on a lo-lo flight profile, the Typhoon has a range of 2900km with just AAMs and internal fuel. Add a central drop tank and you're still be looking at circa 2500km even with the Storm Shadows, giving a strike radius of at least 1811+km with no aerial refuelling even if you send the missile on the lowest flight profile and easily over 2000km for higher flight profiles. For many nations that is enough, it's only really in fairly exceptional circumstances that one requires a longer range than that. In 1991 over Iraq, most airstrikes took places over <1000km in radius and the range offered with Storm Shadow and a central drop tank is enough to hit Baghdad from Yemen for comparison's sake and more than enough to reach Tehran from Riyadh, without even entering Iranian airspace. In fact in 1991 the longest cruise missile strike was 1500km with a Tomahawk from the Gulf of Oman, strikes from the Persian Gulf were about half that range. For many an airstrike from more than 1800km away with 3 drop tanks isn't really too realistic (or even necessary), unless the enemy is a) useless or b) thoroughly crippled wrt air power and air defence capacity, in which case mid-air refuelling becomes an option. It's an easy fit and the potential is there though should there be any weird export requirements.
New
Posts: 8,850
By: MSphere
- 3rd May 2015 at 20:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I showed you where in the last post. You clearly began arguing with someone who stated that.
No, you didn't. I have read it thru, there is no me claiming anything about RBE2-AA's new back-end.
Seems crystal clear to me. Captor-E will provide them.
Sure it will.. The question is when.. My best bet is several years after RBE2-AA has it.
The dictionary has a picture of your name and avatar.
More infantile remarks like this don't make your claims any more true.
Maybe they tested it on the sort of mission they actually tend to execute these days, rather than WWIII. Not every test is WWIII-based.
Go and ask them..
Go look on the Rafale thread at the sort of crap being spouted.
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos - 2nd May 2015 at 10:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Seems to all be included in this new update. Of course the CFTs will be needed to make full use of the Storm Shadow. Interestingly the Storm Shadow MLU is due to introduce a 2-way datalink and anti-ship capability too. Very useful upgrades, concentrate on the upgrades and the bids will win themselves, shame that wasn't the philosophy from the start.
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?134607-Eurofighter-Typhoon-discussion-and-news-2015&p=2219567#post2219567
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos - 2nd May 2015 at 10:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There are obviously some flight conditions where stabilising the aircraft will take precedence, for obvious reasons, but it's potentially possible heading into a BVR encounter in stable flight. Heh, don't know.
Posts: 4,619
By: mrmalaya - 2nd May 2015 at 11:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm always sceptical of these mock ups. That said if you take fuel instead of cruise missiles then that is plenty of useful hardware.
If you compare to this layout we are now looking at more precision strike than ever
[ATTACH=CONFIG]237203[/ATTACH]
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos - 2nd May 2015 at 12:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Swap the Paveway IVs for another 3 Brimstones and you're looking at taking out a dozen tanks, IFVs, APCs, artillery pieces or SAM sites from up to 60km away in a single mission. It's a moderately effective SEAD/DEAD package as well as a precision strike package. SPEAR will be another game changer. I think that the next few years will see the Typhoon undergo massive development, as the Tornado is phased out:
Already funded for integration in P3E
CFTs;
Storm Shadow MLU (anti-ship capability);
Brimstone II, anti-tank and DEAD capability, up to 18;
Paveway IV dual racks, up to 12 in total;
ASRAAM upgrade (unspecified, based on CAMM?);
Meteor;
DASS upgrade;
Striker II helmet;
AESA radar (Captor-E).
Soon after 2018 - funded for development?
SPEAR quad racks.
Posts: 1,533
By: kev 99 - 2nd May 2015 at 13:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's looking like Typhoon will only have 4 hard points able to carry Brimstone though.
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos - 2nd May 2015 at 13:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Maybe, maybe not. There's no reason why 6 couldn't be used with CFTs, although 12 missiles is probably more than enough.
Posts: 1,533
By: kev 99 - 2nd May 2015 at 13:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't ask me why, although it's probably down to money. All the sources mentioning numbers that I have seen are consistently saying 12.
Posts: 1,050
By: Aurel - 2nd May 2015 at 14:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
6 Brimstone and 4 PW IV is exactly twice what the Tornadoes carried over Libya. Plus the option for 4 BVR missiles. That's good enough for me. Can someone identify the dual carrier ? Couldn't find any detailed info on it.
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos - 2nd May 2015 at 14:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think that's a new enhancement in P3E too. There's also a common quad rack in development for the F-35 and Typhoon.
Posts: 2,271
By: eagle - 2nd May 2015 at 16:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Do you have a source?
The twin rack surely look like a mock-up to me. And it isn't a new proposal, anyone remember this one:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]237216[/ATTACH]
Posts: 8,850
By: MSphere - 3rd May 2015 at 00:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Did I? Show me where... Nowhere does it say it already has them.. :highly_amused: Basement level of argumentation has just found its new definition.. In other words: NAVY took the new radar, put it under some ridiculously useless test conditions so that they can claim AESA sucks? :highly_amused: I can only repeat myself - show me where I have ever claimed any of these... Good luck searching..
Posts: 4,461
By: Scorpion82 - 3rd May 2015 at 06:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lukos stop talking nonsense! The only not weapon related changes as part of P3E are avionics reliability improvements.
Captor-E is funded under a separate contract, Striker II at best a BC and don't expect too much from the number of weapons the aircraft will be cleared to carry!
Furthermore changing/improving the integration of weapons does not necessarily entail changes to the weapons itself.
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos - 3rd May 2015 at 08:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sorry Scorpion, that was what I seemed to make of this.
http://www.eurofighter.com/news-and-events/2015/02/eurofighter-typhoon-powers-forward-with-new-enhancement-contract
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos - 3rd May 2015 at 08:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Recent tweet. Makes sense given that a multiple store is being added for Brimstone anyway.
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos - 3rd May 2015 at 08:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I showed you where in the last post. You clearly began arguing with someone who stated that.
Seems crystal clear to me. Captor-E will provide them.
http://www.armada.ch/aircraft-self-protection-sophistication/
The dictionary has a picture of your name and avatar.
Maybe they tested it on the sort of mission they actually tend to execute these days, rather than WWIII. Not every test is WWIII-based.
Go look on the Rafale thread at the sort of crap being spouted.
Posts: 4,619
By: mrmalaya - 3rd May 2015 at 13:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just reading the eurofighter pr, I think it remains to be seen what real weapons are going to be hung from the real life aircraft. The list:
The Phase 3 Enhancement contract is scheduled for delivery in 2017. All four core nations will work on flight control and avionics and the contract will centre round a scheduled programme of weapon testing, the development and testing of flight control systems, and finally store clearing and store release testing. The initial fit for the Brimstone 2 missiles on the Eurofighter will see two launchers fitted to the outboard pylons of the Eurofighter each carrying three Brimstone 2 missiles.
"The full swing-role, multi-role weapons compliment on the Eurofighter could now include a mix of: six Brimstone 2 missiles; up to six Paveway IV bombs, two long-range Storm Shadow missiles, four Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missiles and either two IRIS-T or two ASRAAM heat-seeking missiles."
.....doesnt include fuel tanks so cannot be seen as a realistic weapon carriage configuration.
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos - 3rd May 2015 at 14:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know that all Tranche 3 aircraft have provisions for CFTs.
Posts: 4,619
By: mrmalaya - 3rd May 2015 at 14:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes I agree. The RAF however are not making much noise about that capability (possibly because of internal politics pre SDSR) and no one else is bothered to my knowledge.
Storm shadow needs CFT however.
Posts: 1,760
By: lukos - 3rd May 2015 at 14:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well it's debatable. Storm Shadow has a range of 300nm on a lo-lo flight profile, the Typhoon has a range of 2900km with just AAMs and internal fuel. Add a central drop tank and you're still be looking at circa 2500km even with the Storm Shadows, giving a strike radius of at least 1811+km with no aerial refuelling even if you send the missile on the lowest flight profile and easily over 2000km for higher flight profiles. For many nations that is enough, it's only really in fairly exceptional circumstances that one requires a longer range than that. In 1991 over Iraq, most airstrikes took places over <1000km in radius and the range offered with Storm Shadow and a central drop tank is enough to hit Baghdad from Yemen for comparison's sake and more than enough to reach Tehran from Riyadh, without even entering Iranian airspace. In fact in 1991 the longest cruise missile strike was 1500km with a Tomahawk from the Gulf of Oman, strikes from the Persian Gulf were about half that range. For many an airstrike from more than 1800km away with 3 drop tanks isn't really too realistic (or even necessary), unless the enemy is a) useless or b) thoroughly crippled wrt air power and air defence capacity, in which case mid-air refuelling becomes an option. It's an easy fit and the potential is there though should there be any weird export requirements.
Posts: 8,850
By: MSphere - 3rd May 2015 at 20:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, you didn't. I have read it thru, there is no me claiming anything about RBE2-AA's new back-end.
Sure it will.. The question is when.. My best bet is several years after RBE2-AA has it. More infantile remarks like this don't make your claims any more true. Go and ask them.. Compared to the crap you're spouting?