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Which is tougher A10 or Su-25 (genuine question)?

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  • Y-20 Bacon
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2013
    • 2176

    #41
    on a related note
    can Georgia still produce Su-25s?

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    • Levsha
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2006
      • 2856

      #42
      Originally posted by Andraxxus View Post
      If you look at it this way any payload has nothing to do with survivability.. However the post was strictly about payloads, and some others "considered" PGMs are an advantage of A-10 in (terms of survivability), so that it would be further away from the SAM threat and not get shot down. I agree to that perspective; I believe munitions that can deal with the enemy better, quicker, or further away from the enemy is a KEY part of survivability.
      Well then we don't disagree. But if a stand-off launch range is 'KEY' to an attacking aircraft's survival it would make such slow and heavily armoured types like A-10 and Su-25 fairly irrelevant - no wonder the USAF have been trying to get rid of the A-10 for years.

      A-10/Su-25, are CAS aircraft, they are expected to operate right within range of enemy SHORADS.
      Wrong. These aircraft would not survive most modern air defence systems like you mentioned (Tor-M, Tunguska), not a chance.

      For a pre-planned attack againist a tank brigade that is protected by numerous Tor-Ms, Tunguskas etc, sole ability of carrying Kh-25MP, Kh-58U and Kh-31P (on newer variants), improves survival chance more than anything; armor, PGMs, maneuverability, DAS etc. In fact a pair of anti-radiation missiles can improve survival chance from close-to-zero to very-high.
      Why have you got this fixation on the idea of the Su-25 carrying out SEAD? I don't think this is the assigned role of the Su-25 in RuAF service and they are unlikely to be equiped for the task. Su-24 and Su-34 are Russian SEAD attackers.
      Last edited by Levsha; 1st March 2015, 13:02.

      Comment

      • Levsha
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2006
        • 2856

        #43
        Originally posted by Yama View Post
        A-10 would have been a better plane if it had just the Su-25's Gast gun, or European-style twin 30mm revolver guns.
        The USAF are pretty happy with the gun - it's what they specified 45 years ago - although sure, they probably wouldn't specify it again. Since when was a gun in any application ever considered over-powerful?

        on a related note
        can Georgia still produce Su-25s?
        No.

        Comment

        • Andraxxus
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Sep 2012
          • 953

          #44
          Originally posted by Levsha View Post
          it would make such slow and heavily armoured types like A-10 and Su-25 fairly irrelevant - no wonder the USAF have been trying to get rid of the A-10 for years.
          True, if everything works as advertised. Eventually, when technology will guarantee every target can be detected and destroyed from long ranges, they will be irrelevant. USA, Russia or even Ukraine has aircraft to use PGMs from distance to bomb a specific location. And even in the latest conflicts like afganistan, georgia or ukraine A-10 and Su-25 is heavily used. So for today getting close to enemy is still a necessity and heavy armor is still useful.


          Originally posted by Levsha View Post
          Wrong. These aircraft would not survive most modern air defence systems like you mentioned (Tor-M, Tunguska), not a chance.

          Why have you got this fixation on the idea of the Su-25 carrying out SEAD? I don't think this is the assigned role of the Su-25 in RuAF service and they are unlikely to be equiped for the task. Su-24 and Su-34 are Russian SEAD attackers.
          We are not comparing assigned role, but available capability. Su-25 is capable of SEAD. IF needed, and no other aircraft is available, Su-25 can do it. And by definition of SEAD, it can not only survive, but also take out Tor/Tunguska or similar systems from distance.

          For example both Su-25 and A-10 are capable of carrying A/G munitions on outermost pylons. Should I ignore this capability as well, simply because it isnt used in real life?

          Comment

          • Levsha
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2006
            • 2856

            #45
            Originally posted by Andraxxus View Post
            We are not comparing assigned role, but available capability. Su-25 is capable of SEAD. IF needed, and no other aircraft is available, Su-25 can do it. And by definition of SEAD, it can not only survive, but also take out Tor/Tunguska or similar systems from distance.

            For example both Su-25 and A-10 are capable of carrying A/G munitions on outermost pylons. Should I ignore this capability as well, simply because it isnt used in real life?
            Yes, I agree. Any strike aircraft can carry out a so-called SEAD or DEAD mission using whatever munitions they have at their disposal. In operation Desert Storm in 1991 the air war was begun with SEAD missions against the Iraqi radar network - performed not by the USAF, USN or RAF - but by the US army with their AH-64s.

            Comment

            • MSphere
              Senior Member
              • Feb 2010
              • 8983

              #46
              Originally posted by Levsha View Post
              Yes, I agree. Any strike aircraft can carry out a so-called SEAD or DEAD mission using whatever munitions they have at their disposal. In operation Desert Storm in 1991 the air war was begun with SEAD missions against the Iraqi radar network - performed not by the USAF, USN or RAF - but by the US army with their AH-64s.
              In the context of this thread, SEAD aircraft are those who can perform such mission using dedicated anti-radiation missiles. Eastern publications mention that Su-25BM, Su-25UB(K), Su-25UTG and Su-25T/TM can also carry Vyuga system container under central fuselage hinges for control of Kh-25MP and Kh-58U/E ARMs.

              Comment

              • Berkut
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2011
                • 2216

                #47
                And a video of Su-25 returning during Chechen war, starting from 5.50:

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUq8DKJkZsw

                So yeah, it is plenty tough not to mention afghan war. IMHO Su-25 has demonstrated more toughness than A-10 has ever done, then again A-10 has been hit less, presumably because of the much better active systems. Su-25SM3 should be an unbeatable combo.

                Comment

                • TR1
                  TR1
                  http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 9826

                  #48
                  A-10C has a clear electronic advantage over the cheaper Su-25SM upgrade. The latter does not even have MAWS.
                  Both vanilla birds are horribly outdated in any case.

                  Su-25SM3 really should be the bare minimum for any new CAS purchases/modernizations. Flying either the A-10 and Su-25 without DIRCM today is just stupid.
                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • topspeed
                    Get on uppah !
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 2660

                    #49
                    How big a difference is the 270 km/h slower top speed on A-10 ?
                    If it looks good, it will fly good !
                    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


                    http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

                    Comment

                    • Andraxxus
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Sep 2012
                      • 953

                      #50
                      Originally posted by TR1 View Post
                      Both vanilla birds are horribly outdated in any case.

                      Su-25SM3 really should be the bare minimum for any new CAS purchases/modernizations. Flying either the A-10 and Su-25 without DIRCM today is just stupid.
                      I agree that DIRCM and MAWS is a must for any new modernization/purchase today, but I don't think flying without them is stupid or not having them automatically makes aircraft obsolete. MANPADS weren't a lesser threat in 1985. Its true seekers have improved in last 30 years, but so does the countermeasure flares. Vanilla Su-25 did well enough in 1985, IMHO it will do just as well today; by simply using flares, tactics, maneuverability and armor.

                      Comment

                      • El_Indigo
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jul 2006
                        • 287

                        #51
                        Originally posted by Andraxxus View Post
                        Su-25 also had redundant systems, and apparently much heavier armor than A-10. To quote myself (I've translated from a source I currently can't find it on my pc.)


                        755 kg was a total amount devoted for protection and only 2/3 of that weight was for the titanium armor if I recall correctly.


                        Originally posted by TR1 View Post
                        A-10C has a clear electronic advantage over the cheaper Su-25SM upgrade. The latter does not even have MAWS.
                        Both vanilla birds are horribly outdated in any case.

                        Su-25SM3 really should be the bare minimum for any new CAS purchases/modernizations. Flying either the A-10 and Su-25 without DIRCM today is just stupid.

                        You know what would also be nice ? For MoD stop ******* around and provide the funding for Tula to finish Hermes ******* A's
                        Last edited by El_Indigo; 2nd March 2015, 02:31.

                        Comment

                        • topspeed
                          Get on uppah !
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 2660

                          #52
                          Originally posted by El_Indigo View Post
                          755 kg was a total amount devoted for protection and only 2/3 of that weight was for the titanium armor if I recall correctly.





                          You know what would also be nice ? For MoD stop ******* around and provide the funding for Tula to finish Hermes ******* A's
                          Is Tula Hermes a two stage medium range missile system ?

                          http://www.russiadefence.net/t339-th...-replace-ataka
                          If it looks good, it will fly good !
                          -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


                          http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

                          Comment

                          • mrmalaya
                            Generation 4.75+++
                            • Jan 2010
                            • 4664

                            #53
                            Here are some delicious images of a filthy A10 fleet laden with a wide range of weapons for the pounding of ISIS:

                            http://theaviationist.com/2015/03/03...oadout-kuwait/

                            Click image for larger version

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                            Comment

                            • TomcatViP
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Nov 2011
                              • 6125

                              #54
                              interesting also:
                              the Pentagon has just confirmed that: [] US and Coalition aircraft have not been, and will not be, using depleted uranium munitions in Iraq or Syria during Operation Inherent Resolve, meaning that the 30 mm Depleted Uranium ammunition has not and wont be loaded onto the A-10s.

                              Extracted from the above Link
                              Last edited by TomcatViP; 5th March 2015, 13:09.

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