Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

LM revealed self defence weapon for Stealth fighter

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • mig-31bm
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Oct 2013
    • 2110

    LM revealed self defence weapon for Stealth fighter

    The US Air Force is considering a Lockheed Martin proposal to adapt technology used for a ground-based missile defense system to protect fighters under attack in the air.

    The Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) has invited proposals for a miniature self-defense munition concept study, seeking to develop a concept for a weapon to be dispensed from a fighter jet, hone in on an incoming missile and destroy it with a direct hit.

    By replacing chaff, flares and directional infrared lasers, the so-called miniature self defence munition (MSDM) could revolutionise the concept of defensive countermeasures for tactical aircraft, says Frank St. John, vice-president of tactical missiles and combat manoeuvre systems at Lockheeds Missile and Fire Control division.

    To kinetically engage as a countermeasure something thats fired at you is an attractive possibility, St. John says, rather than just confuse or jam something thats been fired at you.

    Lockheed has been studying the concept using internal funding for about three to four years, St. John says.

    It seeks to leverage the active millimetre wave radar developed for the PAC-3 missile segment enhancement (MSE) programme. It repackages the sensor in a miniature munition powered by a small rocket motor.

    In Lockheeds concept, the pilot is alerted to an incoming missile and dispenses an MSDM, which hones into the target using the radar sensor, St. John says. It is a hit-to-kill weapon, and so lacks a warhead.

    The miniature interceptor could dramatically increase the internal load-outs of fighters such as the F-22 and F-35, he says. It could replace the storage space now claimed for small diameter bombs . Alternatively, three of the miniature interceptors could replace one Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM , he says.

    In addition to the PAC-3 MSE programme, Lockheeds concept also comes out of two other internal projects, St. John says. One is a miniature, radar-guided missile called CUDA and the other programme is KICM.

    Lockheed has worked on component-level hardware development and testing, along with performing operational analysis studies using internal funding. Last year, the AFRL contributed funding for more operational analyses, St. John says.

    Although Lockheed has been studying the concept for four years, it may have competition for more AFRL funding. The AFRL on 5 February notified potential vendors that it is seeking proposals for a pair of concept studies on the MSDM itself and the munitions seeker.
    i find this very interesting, it basically a hard kill protection for fighter, smaller than CUDA ( 3 MSDM can be carried in space for 1 Aim-120)
  • Hotshot
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jul 2014
    • 1127

    #2
    Image the maneuvrability it must have to kill a small target like an AAM, amazing.

    Do other companies have the technology to develop such a missile?

    It could replace the storage space now claimed for small diameter bombs . Alternatively, three of the miniature interceptors could replace one Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM , he says.
    If it takes the same space as an SDB, why isn't it 4 per weapon station, so 4 instead of 1 AMRAAM?

    I'd be curious also about the possibility of using that kind of missile from ground launchers to intercept ballistic missiles, guided bombs...

    Comment

    • mig-31bm
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Oct 2013
      • 2110

      #3
      Originally posted by Hotshot View Post
      Image the maneuvrability it must have to kill a small target like an AAM, amazing.

      Do other companies have the technology to develop such a missile?



      If it takes the same space as an SDB, why isn't it 4 per weapon station, so 4 instead of 1 AMRAAM?

      I'd be curious also about the possibility of using that kind of missile from ground launchers to intercept ballistic missiles, guided bombs...
      it actually take less space than SDB and CUDA
      as stated in first post, the missile can either be carried in space of sdb or 3 of them can replace 1 Aim-120, since externally 1 station of f-35 can carry 2 aim120 (dual rack) => total 6 MSDM missile /station
      Last edited by mig-31bm; 20th February 2015, 07:47.

      Comment

      • Hotshot
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jul 2014
        • 1127

        #4
        It is not very clear. The article says:
        It could replace the storage space now claimed for small diameter bombs . Alternatively, three of the miniature interceptors could replace one Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM , he says.
        Not the 'alternatively', it seems like there are 2 ways of carrying it. One from the quadruple launcher, and one from a triple launcher that can take the space of one AMRAAM launcher. The first would be more for stealth planes from the internal quadruple launcher, the second for legacy planes. For instance an F-15 could carry 3 of those on one of its wing pylon mounted AMRAAMs. That could be a game changer even more for non stealth planes, as they don't have the stealth to avoid being shot at in the first place.

        Comment

        • Multirole
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2000
          • 903

          #5
          The Viggen could automatically point the whole aircraft at the target and fire its gun for head on supersonic intercepts. Don't see why you can't shoot incoming missiles this way.
          pb::

          Comment

          • Hotshot
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jul 2014
            • 1127

            #6
            I don't know if it would work but if you do that you can't make an evasive maneuver. It would be very dangerous because you're pointing right at the missile.

            Comment

            • Multirole
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2000
              • 903

              #7
              Originally posted by Hotshot View Post
              I don't know if it would work but if you do that you can't make an evasive maneuver. It would be very dangerous because you're pointing right at the missile.
              How about a rear facing gunpod with self contained sensors? The F-35B has a centerline gunpod.
              Last edited by Multirole; 20th February 2015, 11:49.
              pb::

              Comment

              • Hotshot
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jul 2014
                • 1127

                #8
                How long does it take to make a U-turn? The missile is coming at you at mach 4.

                The only thing that could work is a vulcan on a turret, which would be way to big for a fighter. Maybe for a bomber...

                Comment

                • mig-31bm
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2013
                  • 2110

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Hotshot View Post
                  It is not very clear. The article says:


                  Not the 'alternatively', it seems like there are 2 ways of carrying it. One from the quadruple launcher, and one from a triple launcher that can take the space of one AMRAAM launcher. The first would be more for stealth planes from the internal quadruple launcher, the second for legacy planes. For instance an F-15 could carry 3 of those on one of its wing pylon mounted AMRAAMs. That could be a game changer even more for non stealth planes, as they don't have the stealth to avoid being shot at in the first place.
                  i think it quite clear that there are 2 kind of launched, if the weapon station can support the SDB BRU-61 then it can support quadruple MSDM launcher, if the weapons station is only air to air station then it can carry 3 MSDM intead
                  for example :

                  station 8,4 can support 4 MSDM while station 5, 7 can only carry 3 MSDM
                  it will be some what similar to the way they intend to load CUDA
                  but because MSDM is smaller, 3 of them can be carried onn inner station instead of just 2 like CUDA





                  on the other hand aircraft like F-18 E/F, F-35, F-15 with external pylon that support 2 aim-120 launcher at the same time, will also be able to carry 2 triple MSDM launcher on that pylon


                  the belly station of F-15 will carry the quadruple MSDM launcher while the wing station will carry the triple MSDM launcher on each side
                  Last edited by mig-31bm; 20th February 2015, 13:48.

                  Comment

                  • mig-31bm
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2013
                    • 2110

                    #10
                    MSDM will allow fighter to carry unbelievable amount of missiles
                    For example based on this picture F-15 can carry 32 MSDM

                    Based on these pic, F-18E can carry 36 MSDM +2 aim-9x


                    Based on the pic F-35 will carry 38 MSDM +Aim-9X

                    Based on pic bellow F-22 will carry 42 MSDM +2 aim-9x

                    Last edited by mig-31bm; 20th February 2015, 14:25.

                    Comment

                    • Hotshot
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jul 2014
                      • 1127

                      #11
                      You don't have to send me pictures, I think I have seen 250000 pictures of those planes ahah! But yes indeed there seems to be to types of carriage intended to be used for it, although it is only a concept for now.

                      Could this revive 4.5 gen aircraft? They can carry many of those on external stations.

                      Btw these missiles are so accurate, if they were to attack an aircraft instead, they could target a very precise part of it, like the cockpit. That would me them even more lethal.
                      Last edited by Hotshot; 20th February 2015, 16:44.

                      Comment

                      • dragon72
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jan 2006
                        • 17

                        #12
                        These are only very short range missiles. They probably only have enough power to go 2-3km. They're a last ditch defense only used if all your other jammers, lasers, decoys, etc don't work. More akin to IMIs' Iron Fist tank defense system than a Sidewinder.

                        I actually see this being more useful on transport aircraft and helicopters. They have less kinetic energy to avoid missiles and the missiles (or rpgs) are often fired closer to the target giving other systems less time to work.

                        Imagine a UAV with a laser and a couple of hardpoints with these things flying an overwatch position over a base or airport able to kill rpgs, mortars and missiles. They could fly escort for inbound and outbound traffic.

                        Comment

                        • mig-31bm
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Oct 2013
                          • 2110

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Hotshot View Post
                          You don't have to send me pictures, I think I have seen 250000 pictures of those planes ahah! But yes indeed there seems to be to types of carriage intended to be used for it, although it is only a concept for now.

                          Could this revive 4.5 gen aircraft? They can carry many of those on external stations.

                          Btw these missiles are so accurate, if they were to attack an aircraft instead, they could target a very precise part of it, like the cockpit. That would me them even more lethal.
                          i think Stealth fighter would still have advantage in air to air engagement again normal fighter, because they can choose to creep up behind 4.5 gen aircraft instead of going head on

                          Even very powerful aircraft radar such as Irbis-e can only detect F-35 from around 40 km in optimum conditions ( look up, no jamming, focus search) , that is around 30 km for tracking range, if the F-35, F-22 fly close to ground to take advantage of clutter or do jamming by their radar, ALE-70, MALD-J or have support jamming from NGJ then the detection, tracking range of enemy's radar will be significantly shorter probably around 10-15 km http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...ECM-vs-FCR-AAM , IRST can be easily defeated by flying in or bellow cloud, it would be quite simple for stealth fighter to dive down the deck when they detect enemy and circle behind 4, 4.5 gen fighter before launching their missiles, it would be hard to intercept missiles launched from behind you with very high speed unless you have something like a turret
                          another choice for stealth fighter is just to avoid engagement altogether ( it would be similar to WW II when fast fighter can dictate the term of engagement, stealth will be able to do the same )
                          on the other hand, i think MSDM will be super useful again SAM, if your aircraft fly at around 40-50k ft then only long or medium range SAM can reach and shot you down ( which mean they still have to use big missiles ) , with 30-40 MSDM a single aircraft will be able to deplete the whole SAM battery , and the advantage of MSDM again cruise decoy such as MALD or ITALD is that they are much smaller, lighter, affect aircraft aerodynamic much less, Not to mention you won't waste any MSDM if enemy decide not to attack
                          the disadvantage is that : a single ITALD or MALD may be able to attract more than 1 enemy's missiles while 1 MSDM can only intercept 1 projectile but with load out of 30-40 missiles that isnot really a big problem
                          Last edited by mig-31bm; 21st February 2015, 03:36.

                          Comment

                          • mig-31bm
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Oct 2013
                            • 2110

                            #14
                            Originally posted by dragon72 View Post
                            These are only very short range missiles. They probably only have enough power to go 2-3km. They're a last ditch defense only used if all your other jammers, lasers, decoys, etc don't work. More akin to IMIs' Iron Fist tank defense system than a Sidewinder.

                            I actually see this being more useful on transport aircraft and helicopters. They have less kinetic energy to avoid missiles and the missiles (or rpgs) are often fired closer to the target giving other systems less time to work.

                            Imagine a UAV with a laser and a couple of hardpoints with these things flying an overwatch position over a base or airport able to kill rpgs, mortars and missiles. They could fly escort for inbound and outbound traffic.
                            i agree
                            but i think they may be also useful as an anti tank weapon, replacing the gun (like a high kinetic round)

                            Comment

                            • Hotshot
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jul 2014
                              • 1127

                              #15
                              Originally posted by dragon72 View Post
                              These are only very short range missiles. They probably only have enough power to go 2-3km. They're a last ditch defense only used if all your other jammers, lasers, decoys, etc don't work. More akin to IMIs' Iron Fist tank defense system than a Sidewinder.
                              If the missile is designed to be mounted on a BRU-61, it might be significantly larger than what you think. I think a 5-8km range would be nice because it would give the plane an short range air to air capability to complement the AMRAAM. In particular, the F-35 has no short range missile internally, so it would be a nice complement. Maybe say a 50kg missile.


                              I actually see this being more useful on transport aircraft and helicopters. They have less kinetic energy to avoid missiles and the missiles (or rpgs) are often fired closer to the target giving other systems less time to work.
                              I see your point. The MSDMs would also help protect the fighters when they carry a heavy load, in which case they can't maneuver much.


                              Imagine a UAV with a laser and a couple of hardpoints with these things flying an overwatch position over a base or airport able to kill rpgs, mortars and missiles. They could fly escort for inbound and outbound traffic.
                              Yep. Or a reaper flying above an airbase with like 15 of those to provide an extra layer of protection.

                              Comment

                              • Hotshot
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jul 2014
                                • 1127

                                #16
                                Originally posted by mig-31bm View Post
                                i think Stealth fighter would still have advantage in air to air engagement again normal fighter, because they can choose to creep up behind 4.5 gen aircraft instead of going head on

                                Even very powerful aircraft radar such as Irbis-e can only detect F-35 from around 40 km in optimum conditions ( look up, no jamming, focus search) , that is around 30 km for tracking range, if the F-35, F-22 fly close to ground to take advantage of clutter or do jamming by their radar, ALE-70, MALD-J or have support jamming from NGJ then the detection, tracking range of enemy's radar will be significantly shorter probably around 10-15 km http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...ECM-vs-FCR-AAM , IRST can be easily defeated by flying in or bellow cloud, it would be quite simple for stealth fighter to dive down the deck when they detect enemy and circle behind 4, 4.5 gen fighter before launching their missiles, it would be hard to intercept missiles launched from behind you with very high speed unless you have something like a turret
                                another choice for stealth fighter is just to avoid engagement altogether ( it would be similar to WW II when fast fighter can dictate the term of engagement, stealth will be able to do the same )
                                on the other hand, i think MSDM will be super useful again SAM, if your aircraft fly at around 40-50k ft then only long or medium range SAM can reach and shot you down ( which mean they still have to use big missiles ) , with 30-40 MSDM a single aircraft will be able to deplete the whole SAM battery , and the advantage of MSDM again cruise decoy such as MALD or ITALD is that they are much smaller, lighter, affect aircraft aerodynamic much less, Not to mention you won't waste any MSDM if enemy decide not to attack
                                the disadvantage is that : a single ITALD or MALD may be able to attract more than 1 enemy's missiles while 1 MSDM can only intercept 1 projectile but with load out of 30-40 missiles that isnot really a big problem
                                Mmmh I kind of doubt that the Irbis-e would detect the F-35 at only 40km, even from the front. And I was talking about 4.5 Gen planes, meaning reduced RCS planed, unlike the Flanker. Say a plane with 0.5sqm RCS fully loaded, like a typhoon with 6 AAMs and 6 MSDMs.

                                The F-35 would shoot first but they don't carry many missiles, and their missiles would probably not have a high pk against an advanced 4.5 gens to begin with. If the F-35 itself carries MSDMs, the number of missiles it carries is even less.

                                I don't think intercepting a missile coming from behind would be that much of a problem because the MSDM has thrust vectoring. Of course you need the sensors to detect the incoming missile.

                                The stealthy plane woud still have the advantage, but not by much.


                                The MSDMs might be usefull against long range sams indeed. I can imagine a few aircraft being loaded with MSDMs instead of their normal number of AMRAAMs to protect a strike package, if the formation is flying close enough.

                                Comment

                                • mig-31bm
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Oct 2013
                                  • 2110

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Hotshot View Post
                                  Mmmh I kind of doubt that the Irbis-e would detect the F-35 at only 40km, even from the front. And I was talking about 4.5 Gen planes, meaning reduced RCS planed, unlike the Flanker. Say a plane with 0.5sqm RCS fully loaded, like a typhoon with 6 AAMs and 6 MSDMs.

                                  The F-35 would shoot first but they don't carry many missiles, and their missiles would probably not have a high pk against an advanced 4.5 gens to begin with. If the F-35 itself carries MSDMs, the number of missiles it carries is even less.

                                  I don't think intercepting a missile coming from behind would be that much of a problem because the MSDM has thrust vectoring. Of course you need the sensors to detect the incoming missile.

                                  The stealthy plane woud still have the advantage, but not by much.
                                  Irbis-e can detect target with RCS =0.01 m2 from 90 km, so according to radar equation even without any loss it will detect target with RCS =0.001 m2 ( f-35) from around 45 km, tracking range of radar ( where you got info for weapon solution such asrange, heading, speed) is around 60-70% of detection range, so Irbis-e can track F-35 from 27-31 km and that range is only achieved when look up( no ground clutter) , and without any jamming, if you factor in noise jamming from APG-81, ALE-70, MALD-J and the F-35 fly closer to ground ( lower RCS make jamming more effective, reducing power required and burn-through range significantly) it really easy to see the realistic detection - tracking range of Irbis-e again F-35 is only around 10-15km or even less (i know that sounds very low, but remember stealth fighter like F-22,F-35 was designed to hide from SAM radar such as the 64N6 BIG BIRD which is enormous compared to any fighter radar both in term of size, power, processing speed) F-35 can easily creeping up behind 4, 4.5 gen fighter before open fire with it's missiles
                                  Typhoon, Rafale may do better than Flanker due to their smaller RCS, however their RCS still many times bigger than F-35 especially if they carry weapon
                                  APG-81 can detect target with RCS = 1 m2 from 150 km, and target with RCS = 0.1m2 from 90 km http://www.deagel.com/Aircraft-Warne...001381001.aspx
                                  http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/phone/news..._newsidx=97236
                                  so with RCS =0.5 m2 when loaded with missiles then EF-2000, RAfale, F-18E will probably be detected from around 120 km, obviously they can also use jamming and different tactic to reduce APG-81 detection range, however F-35 will still have considerable advantage in detection- tracking range due to :
                                  1) all 4.5 gen have radar quite similar in size and power with APG-81 ( Rafale and gripen actually have smaller, less powerful radar) but F-35 have much smaller RCS
                                  2) according to radar equation, 50% reduction in RCS will make jamming 50% more effective and reduce burn through range by 25%, so even if same kind of jamming was put on both normal fighter and stealth fighter, the one on stealth fighter will do it's job better

                                  ( recently according to general Mike Hostage F-35 is even more Stealthy than F-22, and F-22 RCS was claimed to be close to 0.0001 m2 so probably F-35' RCS is closer to 0.0001 m2 than 0.001 m2 so the detection range of fighter radar again F-35 will be even less, and if F-35 was to have support from very powerful jamming such as NGJ then the Ibis-e may not be able to detect it at all)
                                  to sum up F-35/22 can easily creeping up behind 4, 4.5 gen fighter before open fire with it's missiles ( since they open fire from very close they can use CUDA instead of Aim-120)

                                  intercept missile launched at you from behind will be harder because :
                                  1) missiles take valuable time to turn
                                  2) most aircraft dont have tail radar and even if they do their tail radar wont have the range and processing power of nose radar ( inferior in term of range, jamming resistance and number of target they can track and guide missiles to at once
                                  3) MSDM is very small missile thus have very little burn times = very limited range => if intercept enemy missile from behind = even less range =>less window of opportunity
                                  Originally posted by Hotshot View Post
                                  The MSDMs might be usefull against long range sams indeed. I can imagine a few aircraft being loaded with MSDMs instead of their normal number of AMRAAMs to protect a strike package, if the formation is flying close enough.
                                  MSDM may required the launching aircraft to have very advanced radar that can track and attack many target at once
                                  Last edited by mig-31bm; 21st February 2015, 09:30.

                                  Comment

                                  • Hotshot
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jul 2014
                                    • 1127

                                    #18
                                    Hostage said the F-35 CAN be stealthier than the F-22. He was probably not talking about the RCS, but other types of stealths. For instance it is not hard to believe that an F-35 would be stealthier in IR than an F-22 when it doesn't use its afterburner. It might also have more advanced EMCON stealth. So don't count too much on less than 0.001sqm RCS.

                                    Also the F-35 specs were not supposed to be equal to the F-22's, as the F-35 was meant to be exportable. In particular, the F-35 is probably significantly less stealthy than the F-22 from the sides.

                                    The typhoon will have a powerful EASA radar with a moving antenna, so it can search to the sides, that is, the angle at which the F-35 has a higher RCS. If the typhoons are spread over a large area, it might not be easy for the F-35s to try and turn around them without being detected. Using the afterburner will also get the F-35 detected if it is in the PIRATE's field of view and if the weather is not bad.

                                    So it might not be as easy as it seems, all the more that the F-35 can't run after a typhoon because of its very limited supercruise. Its missile would have a much shorter range when fired from behind.

                                    As for the ability of the radar to guide the MSDM, the 4.5 gens EASA radars are probably good enough to detect an incoming missile.

                                    The MSDM will have side thrusters to change direction very quickly after launch so it will probably be capable of attacking missiles coming from behind. A DAS type system might be able to detect and track a missile fired from behind.

                                    I still think the stealthy plane has an advantage, but the F-35 is NOT an F-22 and will have a limited number of missiles onboard, especially if one of the internal hardpoint is used for 4 MSDMs. Also, forget about external AIM-9Xs if you want to keep it as stealthy as possible to go through the enemy planes and attack from behind.
                                    Last edited by Hotshot; 21st February 2015, 11:31.

                                    Comment

                                    • mig-31bm
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Oct 2013
                                      • 2110

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Hotshot View Post
                                      Hostage said the F-35 CAN be stealthier than the F-22. He was probably not talking about the RCS, but other types of stealths. For instance it is not hard to believe that an F-35 would be stealthier in IR than an F-22 when it doesn't use its afterburner. It might also have more advanced EMCON stealth. So don't count too much on less than 0.001sqm RCS
                                      he also said this :
                                      But stealth is not invisibility, especially for fighters that must have tails for maneuverability (rather than the B-2 stealth bomber’s tailless “flying wing” design). Both F-22s and F-35s will be spotted at range by low frequency radar. The F-35’s cross section is much smaller than the F-22’s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war.
                                      and this
                                      “The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets,” says Hostage, leaning forward. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.”
                                      it most certainly he talked about radar cross section , neither F-35 or F-22 was ever credited to have infrared stealth, in fact no fighter aircraft was ever claimed to be steath in infrared
                                      because that not possible

                                      since he said '' f-35 can beat f-22 in stealth '' , i believe that f-35 RCS will be very close to F-22 ( 0.0001m2)


                                      Originally posted by Hotshot View Post
                                      Also the F-35 specs were not supposed to be equal to the F-22's, as the F-35 was meant to be exportable. In particular, the F-35 is probably significantly less stealthy than the F-22 from the sides.
                                      F-22 still fly faster , higher, carry more weapons, more agile than F-35 while some what similar to it in stealth, with that much downgrade it reasonable to let LM export F-35, there is little reason to believe that F-35 is less stealth than F-22 because it was tasked to attack SAM so it need Stealth even more than F-22, secondly F-35 have much smaller size, design much later, have a more advanced material
                                      Originally posted by Hotshot View Post

                                      The typhoon will have a powerful EASA radar with a moving antenna, so it can search to the sides, that is, the angle at which the F-35 has a higher RCS. If the typhoons are spread over a large area, it might not be easy for the F-35s to try and turn around them without being detected. Using the afterburner will also get the F-35 detected if it is in the PIRATE's field of view and if the weather is not bad.

                                      So it might not be as easy as it seems, all the more that the F-35 can't run after a typhoon because of its very limited supercruise. Its missile would have a much shorter range when fired from behind.
                                      Typhoon radar is inferior to irbis-e both in terms of size and power so it very unlikely that it will have compatible range, and even if it does, even the Irbis-e is around 1/10 as powerful as SAM radar such as 64N6E that F-35 was designed to hide from
                                      Bear in mind that the F-35 is the first US aircraft designed to the requirement that it be highly effective at neutralizing S-400 systems and their cousins.
                                      , and as i explained before the impressive detection range of fighter radar will shrink significantly if enemy taking advantage of clutter or if there was jamming, and tracking range is only 60-70% of detection range
                                      it true that F-35 will have bigger RCS from the side, but the same thing happened to typhoon, RAfale, gripen, in fact will be significantly worse because of their perpendicular tail and weapon pylon so the exactly same scenario i described earlier will happened, may be at a bit longer range (as explained earlier smaller RCS also mean jamming is alot more effective so real life will always favor stealth fighter)
                                      there are cloud on the sky most of the time regardless of weather, very rarely you have a sky without any cloud so in real life it not very hard to hide from IRST
                                      once get behind typhoon the F-35 can turn on it's afterburner to chased typhoon
                                      i do agree that when lauched from behind the range will be shorter but you can get closer
                                      Originally posted by Hotshot View Post
                                      As for the ability of the radar to guide the MSDM, the 4.5 gens EASA radars are probably good enough to detect an incoming missile.
                                      they can but most fighter dont have tail radar, let alone a powerful tail radar that can lock and guide missile to many target at the same time that why i suggest stealth fighter to creeping up from behind
                                      Originally posted by Hotshot View Post
                                      The MSDM will have side thrusters to change direction very quickly after launch so it will probably be capable of attacking missiles coming from behind. A DAS type system might be able to detect and track a missile fired from behind.
                                      still take more time, have less range than intercept missile coming from head on, and without guider from fire control radar their ability to intercept many target simultaneously is questionable
                                      Originally posted by Hotshot View Post
                                      I still think the stealthy plane has an advantage, but the F-35 is NOT an F-22 and will have a limited number of missiles onboard, especially if one of the internal hardpoint is used for 4 MSDMs. Also, forget about external AIM-9Xs if you want to keep it as stealthy as possible to go through the enemy planes and attack from behind.
                                      in air to air mission, i wouldn't really want to carry MSDM, my optimum load for f-35 would be
                                      1 MALD-J : for support jamming, drop when detect enemy, the jamming power is weak compared to NGJ or APG-81 but F-35 have very tiny RCS so it doesn't need high power jamming to hide itself from enemy
                                      2 Meteor : ramjet = very good kinetic = high PK (to be fair Aim-120D is alright too because we are talking about launching missiles from really short range, but i just like Meteor more)
                                      4 CUDA : creep from behind and launched from short range so you dont need very long range AAM, high number also mean more problems for enemy if they try to intercept missiles launched at them
                                      in SEAD-DEAD mission again powerful low band radar that can detect stealth fighter from long range, i probably prefer full load of 38 MSDM to intercept enemy's missiles + 2 Aim-9x, since aim-9 can attack ground target, they are probably useful to destroy enemy's radar post
                                      Last edited by mig-31bm; 21st February 2015, 15:44.

                                      Comment

                                      • Hotshot
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jul 2014
                                        • 1127

                                        #20
                                        it most certainly he talked about radar cross section , neither F-35 or F-22 was ever credited to have infrared stealth, in fact no fighter aircraft was ever claimed to be steath in infrared
                                        because he said '' f-35 can beat f-22 in stealth '' , i believe that f-35 RCS will be very close to F-22
                                        He most certainly is NOT talking about 'radar' cross section. He was probably simply talking about the physical size of the planes. The F-35 physical cross section is smaller, but that doesn't mean.

                                        Every stealth fighter is designed to reduced its IR signature, and they use several techniques for that, i.e. special exhaust, paints etc... When he says that the F-35 beats the F-22 in stealth he probably means that a subsonic F-35 has a significantly lower IR signature than the F-22, which is rather obvious. The question regarding stealth is, is it better to fly faster and have a higher IR or not? You gain on speed so the defenses have less time to intercept the plane but you're more likely to be detected in IR.

                                        Also, again the JSF was not meant to be as stealthy as the F-22. My guess is that its frontal RCS is almost the same as the F-22, which is good for the first shot, but from the other angles it is significantly worse ( less facetting of the fuselage in particular, less stealthy nozzles probably ), even though it still qualifies as VLO.

                                        Typhoon radar is inferior to irbis-e both in terms of size and power so it very unlikely that it will have compatible range, and even if it does, even the Irbis-e is around 1/10 as powerful as SAM radar such as 64N6E that F-35 was designed to hide from, and as i explained before the impressive detection range of fighter radar will shrink significantly if enemy taking advantage of clutter or if there was jamming, and tracking range is only 60-70% of detection range
                                        Irbis-e is a PESA, the CAESAR is an AESA, so that will probably compensate. It can look 90 degrees off center.

                                        http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...l-e-scan-radar

                                        there are cloud on the sky most of the time regardless of weather, very rarely you have a sky without any cloud so in real life it not very hard to hide from IRST
                                        Depends where. And btw, if the PIRATE can't see the F-35 because of the clouds, the F-35 can't see the typhoons with its EOTS.

                                        once get behind typhoon the F-35 can turn on it's afterburner to chased typhoon
                                        Mmh... better be careful there is no other typhoon searching. The typhoons will know that the F-35s will try to do that.

                                        they can but most fighter dont have tail radar, let alone a powerful tail radar that can lock and guide missile to many target at the same time that why i suggest stealth fighter to creeping up from behind
                                        It still complicates the interception a lot. The stealth plane cannot fire head on in bvr at long range as it would usually.

                                        still take more time, have less range than intercept missile coming from head on, and without guider from fire control radar their ability to intercept many target simultaneously is questionable
                                        With side thrusters it wouldn't take much time, maybe even less than one second. Could a DAS like system be used for that I don't know.

                                        in air to air mission, i wouldn't really want to carry MSDM, my optimum load for f-35 would be
                                        1 MALD-J : for support jamming, drop when detect enemy, the jamming power is weak compared to NGJ but F-35 have very tiny RCS so it doesn't need high power jamming
                                        2 Meteor : ramjet = very good kinetic = high PK
                                        4 CUDA : creep from behind and launched from short range so you dont need very long range AAM, high number also mean more problems for enemy if they try to intercept missiles launched at them
                                        If you use the APG-81 for jamming, you can carry 1 more meteor or 4 more CUDAs. I would try to see if it is possible to program the meteor to fly around the enemy plane, outside the NEZ of its MSDMs. The meteor would be launched right before the F-35 is detected, say at 50-60km to give as much terminal propulsion to the missile to make a u-turn. As soon as the meteors are launched, I use the APG-81 for jamming, I continue to to fly straight ahead and I launched one CUDA per target. So the enemy has 2 missiles to counter at the same time coming from different directions. Each F-35 would have 2 meteors, 6 CUDAs, and 2 MSDMs ( on 2 internal BRU-61s ). The MSDMs can still save the plane and more than 8 AAMs is probably not needed.

                                        in SEAD-DEAD mission again powerful low band radar that can detect stealth fighter from long range, i probably prefer full load of 38 MSDM to intercept enemy's missiles + 2 Aim-9x, since aim-9 can attack ground target, they are probably useful to destroy enemy's radar post
                                        I am not sure it could carry 38... with 6 BRU-61, that would be 24.

                                        In that config you lose whole your stealth and anything can shoot at you. and it is still very dangerous, the MSDMs will not have a 100% pk. I think I would still attack in stealth mode flying NOTE with popu up tactics and ARMs or some sort of stand off missile with a terminal seeker. The F-35 needs stealthy cruise missiles that can fit in its bays.

                                        Comment

                                        Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                        Collapse

                                         

                                        Working...
                                        X