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By: - 28th September 2014 at 18:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A nice upgrade but lacking BVR capability. In that regard I like the MiG-21 Bison much better.
By: - 29th September 2014 at 03:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No BVR but it supported Litening TP and both eastern and western ordnance.
Python III and R-73M
By: - 29th September 2014 at 04:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For the Romanians I'm sure the upgrade was more than sufficient. It gave their MiG-21 fleet a new lease on life along with a slew of new capabilities. Still a dangerous WVR fighter.
Interesting seeing Western and Eastern weapons on the same aircraft in the same photo.
By: - 29th September 2014 at 05:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As I understand they had financial problems (after upgrading the fleet) and a number of the LancerRs ended up grounded, waiting for overhaul?
By: - 29th September 2014 at 14:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
OK comrades, pack 'em up and head to the ME. ISIS would live to see some more Migs attacking them...
By: - 29th September 2014 at 19:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I too like the colors on the aircraft in the first post, but agree a dumb bomb and an updated sidewinder as shown in the first post is not especially impressive.
Some of the African MiG-21's also look really great with some brown and green colors not seen very often. Definitely more interesting than 50 shades of gray- the color not the book....
By: - 29th September 2014 at 23:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I too like the colors on the aircraft in the first post, but agree a dumb bomb and an updated sidewinder as shown in the first post is not especially impressive.Some of the African MiG-21's also look really great with some brown and green colors not seen very often. Definitely more interesting than 50 shades of gray- the color not the book....
Don't know if it can fit under the small canopy of the bird but a targeting head sight system with a pair of Aim9x blck II under the wings might turn the equation.
And let's get crazy about it: a conformal 3D AESA in the nose cone, composite wing skin pannels and an AL41F with TVC !
By: - 30th September 2014 at 00:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why Al-41? The R-25 of the MiG-21bis is as big as RD33 and that engine supports a tvc. And why go with some fancy aesa on a 60 year old design?
By: - 30th September 2014 at 00:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why Al-41? The R-25 of the MiG-21bis is as big as RD33 and that engine supports a tvc. And why go with some fancy aesa on a 60 year old design?
Good point for the RD33. I just tried to make it more fashionable ;)
Beyond the fun (..and let's get crazy about it...), the small delta with rearward coupled elevator is still an interesting config with some potential. Seriously.
Extend the nose by nearly one meter, add some FBW, suppress all the static anti-flutter device, get a new paint and... zing! You (probably) got something...
By: - 30th September 2014 at 01:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sounds like you want the JF-17 in an OVT version.
By: - 30th September 2014 at 03:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just to clarify...the LanceR C does have the DASH helmet as the Python III is one of the missiles carried although I think the R.550 Magic II (as seen in the first photo) is the primary AA weapon. The R-73 (& R-60 & R-13) are cleared for use as well.
As for air-to-ground munitions, the aircraft retains the capability to use unguided bombs and rocket pods of Soviet origin, but it is also cleared for Mk-80 series dumb bombs and the same bombs fitted with Israeli Opher and Lizard guidance systems. The Litening targeting pod is also cleared for use to guide such weapons.
It's much more than just a "Sidewinder and dumb bomb" aircraft. I'm not saying its 5th generation, but why are people always so negative on this forum? The point of the thread was simply to post some photos and perhaps have light hearted discussion on these jets...
Strange bunch that posts here these days....
By: - 30th September 2014 at 05:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just to clarify...the LanceR C does have the DASH helmet as the Python III is one of the missiles carried although I think the R.550 Magic II (as seen in the first photo) is the primary AA weapon. The R-73 (& R-60 & R-13) are cleared for use as well.As for air-to-ground munitions, the aircraft retains the capability to use unguided bombs and rocket pods of Soviet origin, but it is also cleared for Mk-80 series dumb bombs and the same bombs fitted with Israeli Opher and Lizard guidance systems. The Litening targeting pod is also cleared for use to guide such weapons.
It's much more than just a "Sidewinder and dumb bomb" aircraft. I'm not saying its 5th generation, but why are people always so negative on this forum? The point of the thread was simply to post some photos and perhaps have light hearted discussion on these jets...
Strange bunch that posts here these days....
I know Phan... We just have some fun. And I like the lanceR btw. Pretty much what is needed for much of the Zulu alert against slow flyer (airliner etc...) in Eu. Even better sometime than an F4F ;)
For the helmet, my memory seems to have failed. You are right. I had the wrong idea that the fit was more tight.
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By: - 30th September 2014 at 05:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't know if it can fit under the small canopy of the bird but a targeting head sight system with a pair of Aim9x blck II under the wings might turn the equation.
it can fit under the canopy- the MiG-21 Bison features a helmet mounted tracking system for the R-73E missile.
By: - 30th September 2014 at 19:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just to clarify...the LanceR C does have the DASH helmet as the Python III is one of the missiles carried although I think the R.550 Magic II (as seen in the first photo) is the primary AA weapon. The R-73 (& R-60 & R-13) are cleared for use as well.As for air-to-ground munitions, the aircraft retains the capability to use unguided bombs and rocket pods of Soviet origin, but it is also cleared for Mk-80 series dumb bombs and the same bombs fitted with Israeli Opher and Lizard guidance systems. The Litening targeting pod is also cleared for use to guide such weapons.
It's much more than just a "Sidewinder and dumb bomb" aircraft. I'm not saying its 5th generation, but why are people always so negative on this forum? The point of the thread was simply to post some photos and perhaps have light hearted discussion on these jets...
Strange bunch that posts here these days....
I have never seen the DASH in operation with the LanceR, to be honest. But the helmet does appear on various diagrams depicting the systems of the bird.
Anyway, I find lack of BVR on the type as somewhat disturbing, especially given the fact that it is cleared for three completely different WVR missile types (R-550, R-73, Python-3). A decent BVR missile should not have been that hard to integrate with the EL/M-2032, IMO and would get the LanceR to a completely different capability level.
What I do like, though, is LDP pod, Lizard bombs and the jammer pod (EL/M-8222?)
By: - 30th September 2014 at 20:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If what you say it's true about DASH, it must be the all too present monetary reasons, same for lack of a BVR missile, the Elta radar is paired with the Derby missile so having the Lancer carry say 2 Derby and 2 Magics would make it into a nasty PDI even today. As far as i know, at the moment only Lancer-C and B are flying, no more than 20 in total, all the Lancer-A have been retired, a waste given the money spent on them. Actually i always thought that for the same budget they should have upgraded all possible with EL/M-2032 radar, rather that have those 71 with just a rangefinder. I don't know how much is the radar contributing to the upgrade costs, it would have been much less that 110 upgraded airframes in total, but if say they had 60 Lancers with radars and BVR missiles and 15 two-seaters, perhaps it would have been a better choice imo (at least tactically), though probably they would still fly just 20 today. At least they would have had more airframes to spread the hours around.
As it is they bought BOTH Python-3 (not even Python-4) and Magic-2, it only serves to increase the maintenance burden. But i don't expect the despicable thieves in the government to take any rational decisions...
As for the air to ground mission, it still have MiG-21s short range and comparatively small payload, but at least it would be quite accurate with what it can fire or drop (cannon, rockets, unguided or guided bombs to a maximum of 500kg each).
By: - 1st October 2014 at 09:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've always thought the LanceR programme comprising 110 upgraded airframes was way too big. The LanceR-A aircraft were tactically pretty much worthless, anyway. Some 32-36 LanceR-Cs, equipped with EL/M-2032, upgraded with DASH and Derby, plus some 4-6 LanceR-B for LIFT role, what more would RoAF need?
Nevertheless, I've always been fan of the Sniper upgrade for the Fulcrum, a pity to see the sole prototype rot at Aerostar.
By: - 1st October 2014 at 09:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why Al-41? The R-25 of the MiG-21bis is as big as RD33 and that engine supports a tvc. And why go with some fancy aesa on a 60 year old design?The version for MiG-21 was called RD-33N. Later evolved to SMR-95 for Mirage class fighters and ultimately to RD-93 for FC-1/JF-17.
By: - 2nd October 2014 at 05:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So is LanceR C capable of using the Litening, EL/L-8222 jamming pod, and Lizard and Opher guided bombs or were those only used on the LanceR A aircraft?
By: - 2nd October 2014 at 10:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Preferred the Bison as well... specially with the bigger canopy, more room for a helmet sight
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By: - 2nd October 2014 at 22:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So is LanceR C capable of using the Litening, EL/L-8222 jamming pod, and Lizard and Opher guided bombs or were those only used on the LanceR A aircraft?Yes, Cs were seen with LDP and Lizards.
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By: PhantomII - 28th September 2014 at 18:10
I rather like the paint schemes on this aircraft, and I find it to have an interesting mix of capabilities for such an old warhorse. Thoughts?
LanceR C firing an R.550 Magic II
LanceR C dropping some type of Russian bombs(?)...FAB-250 perhaps?
LanceR B trainer in afterburner
LanceR A with two wing tanks