Typhoon vs J-10 for Iraq

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10 years 11 months

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Since there's new reports of Iraq considering some other aircraft due to perceived limitations of the F-16 buys,
which of these two would be 1. more useful for Iraq, 2 more likely.
Apparently the French were unwilling to offer something to Iraq so no Rafales.

Original post

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12 years 1 month

Posts: 355

JF17

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13 years 2 months

Posts: 1,299

J-10 still isn't cleared for export and I'm not sure if they need typhoons top end capabilities.
JF-17 would be a good fit though. Still the Iraqi F-16 deal doesn't look like it will derail, so this is all academic anyway

Member for

10 years 11 months

Posts: 2,040

J-10 still isn't cleared for export and I'm not sure if they need typhoons top end capabilities.
JF-17 would be a good fit though. Still the Iraqi F-16 deal doesn't look like it will derail, so this is all academic anyway

if CAC is still trying to push J-10s to Pakistan, what makes you think its not cleared for export? The only reason why Pakistan hasn't jumped on it yet is because 1. they're broke. 2. what little money they have, they seem interested in a 5th gen type from China that could stand up to the FGFA

but I agree, maybe we should add the JF-17 and its academic for now. Iraq can still purchase the aircraft even with F-16s, just as how the former IrAF had French, Russian, and other aircraft.

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10 years 11 months

Posts: 184

j10b is the best choice.
remember jf17 is for pakistan. pakistan want a fighter but did not have engineering skill or human resorce for that and had to ask china to help build it for them.
that is why china dont buy it becoz they dont need a plane design for pakistan.
also iraq is richer, they can afford j10b after they sell more oil.

j10b and typhoon is close choice. but j10b can offer same air to air capability like the next typhoon version with aesa and supercruise
but j10b is better in two ways. first is j10b has more range because it use one engine. typhoon has two engine to feed. second is air to ground. Lybia show that typhoon did very bad in a2g and needed help from other airplane. in reality it can only drop one kind of bomb

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13 years 2 months

Posts: 1,299

if CAC is still trying to push J-10s to Pakistan, what makes you think its not cleared for export? The only reason why Pakistan hasn't jumped on it yet is because 1. they're broke. 2. what little money they have, they seem interested in a 5th gen type from China that could stand up to the FGFA

Have CAC been pushing pakistan to J-10s? I think the PAF have been interested in it meaning they've obviously been shown it, with initial overtures made, supposedly even an agreement in 2009 or whenever it was to acquire 36. But that was all anecdotal and nothing has arisen, not from the chinese side at least.

As for export clearance...
http://english.people.com.cn/90786/8421772.html

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19 years 6 months

Posts: 1,518


j10b and typhoon is close choice. but j10b can offer same air to air capability like the next typhoon version with aesa and supercruise
but j10b is better in two ways. first is j10b has more range because it use one engine. typhoon has two engine to feed. second is air to ground. Lybia show that typhoon did very bad in a2g and needed help from other airplane. in reality it can only drop one kind of bomb

Source?

By the time Iraq might want to buy Typhoon it should have a pretty capable a2g suite, and from what I hear it did just fine over Lybia.

Also, is there any data in the public domain comparing the radar in the J-10b with that in the Typhoon?

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10 years 11 months

Posts: 2,040

Have CAC been pushing pakistan to J-10s? I think the PAF have been interested in it meaning they've obviously been shown it, with initial overtures made, supposedly even an agreement in 2009 or whenever it was to acquire 36. But that was all anecdotal and nothing has arisen, not from the chinese side at least.

As for export clearance...
http://english.people.com.cn/90786/8421772.html

I think it was in the PAF thread, some one posted an article where China was asking PAF whether they were going to buy it or not, apparently they are tired of waiting for Pakistan's response.
sometimes its good to check out what goes on in other air forces besides China.

however your news link is also interesting. I am surprised they haven't granted an export monkey model yet.

Member for

13 years 2 months

Posts: 1,299

Ah but with all chinese military transactions, and especially something as potentially "sensitive" and rumour hounded as J-10, news from the chinese side would be the ultimate say.

We've heard too many times from pakistan sources that a J-10 deal was happening, but still nothing has eventuated.

Member for

11 years 1 month

Posts: 783

In the short term the Iraqis have indeed looked at the JF17 in Pakistan and the CAC representative visited the Iraqi Air Force commander many times.

There is no news about interest in J10s at all. I don't know if these are cleared for Iraq. But since China is THE single biggest investor in Iraqi oil fields and also the biggest customer of Iraqi crude oil.. I think they may be interested in allowing Iraq to have a "self defence" capability, if only to protect on of China's main energy supplier...

There was a brief talk between Iraq and UK where the "Typhoon" was brought up. From what I have heard (yes you can call it hearsay) the British offered some Tranche 1 Typhoons to Iraq at a price double that of the F16s... Iraqis declined.

The French offered the Iraqis some 30 year old Mirage F1 airframes with some upgrades for the same price as a brand new F16-IQ... Iraqis also declined this offer.

There has been talk and testing of MiG35 in Russia by Iraqis. At the moment this seems to be the single most likely type to enter service with the Iraqi airforce in the next year or two alongside the F16IQ.

Note that Iraqi defence spending runs at about 7% to 8% of GDP. in 2013 it was $16Bn... in 2014 it will be $23Bn... what will it be in 2015...? maybe $28Bn ... by 2020 maybe in the $40Bn range... note that the Iraqis are not running a costly navy, so all that money is going for army and airforce, with the greatest focus on air force (army is being equipped mostly with EDA hand me downs from the US, which they deem sufficient for now).

There is potential there (budgetary) for quite a few "high end" types and AEW to be inducted, and probably at a pace that may surprise some people. If there is one painful lesson Iraq learned from its wars over the past 23 years its "protect your airspace at all costs"... they have the money for it. If there's a country willing to sell, they'll buy.

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14 years 1 month

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j10b and typhoon is close choice. but j10b can offer same air to air capability like the next typhoon version with aesa and supercruise
but j10b is better in two ways. first is j10b has more range because it use one engine. typhoon has two engine to feed. second is air to ground. Lybia show that typhoon did very bad in a2g and needed help from other airplane. in reality it can only drop one kind of bomb

1. Typhoon has more range than J-10
2. In reality, J-10B can drop no bombs.
3. Quit your bullsh!t

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14 years 4 months

Posts: 2,114

That's alot of money there. Surely if they want to they can easily reach the minimum 200 fighters (though imo they need 300 at least to be equal to KSA and Turkey).
36 F-16, 72 Su-30 and/or Su-35, 72 MiG-35 and 36 KAI T-50 plus 6-8 advanced AEWs can easily be achieved!
Imo, the french and the british must be mad for making crap offers to a potentially very important future customer like Iraq, but i guess their governments are in the hands of US, even if it means BILLIONS lost for their own countries' defence industry. (same like the Egypt story, the french were not INTERESTED to offer the Rafale to them! Are they nuts or what?)
They can get all the stuff that they need and is refused by the yanks, and China can start becoming an important weapons supplier by delivering and array of UAVs (refused by the americans) to help against the terrorist threat. This, IF there is the will and foresight in the iraqi leadership. I'm just hoping the russians won't cave in to whatever pressure and /or empty promises the yanks, saudis, turks, israelis will put on them like with Iran, that would be a bummer...

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11 years 1 month

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I am guessing the UK and France have a synergism with the US when it comes to arms sales. At least the US lets the Iraqis pick up some APCs artillery and tanks from Excess Defence Articles at a very nice knock-down price... which has allowed the Iraqis to at least build up the ground forces command for little money... Whereas the Europeans seem intent on just handing Iraq on a platter to Rosoboronexport and CAC. With Iraqi potential arms imports of $40-$50Bn over the next 7-8 years, that seems a bit odd!

Iraqi commanders and the MOD have been stating that they intend to "match and exceed" Iraq's neighbours in military capability. Since by 2020 at least 2 of Iraq's neighbours will be operating 5th Generation types... I'd expect the Iraqis would be looking at such type over the next 7-8 years too (purely for "capability matching")... not to mention the need to provide air defence protection against the mass rockets/missiles of Iran... for which the US has nicely provided Iraq with some HAWK missiles! I think the Russians or Chinese may be able to provide a better offer than that...

We will see in Iraqi defence purchases a repeat of what happened with the Oil Majors. Initial arrogance by the US companies in their attitude towards Iraqis... followed by losing contract after contract to Russian and Chinese majors... Same happened with the "reconstruction work" contracts... when US companies would bid 3x 4x the price of South Korean contractors due to the need to pay for their $10k/day mercenaries on Iraq's nickel! That gravy train didn't go too far either once the US withdrew!

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11 years 10 months

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Would the Chinese sell the J-10's to Iraq, knowing that U.S. intelligence services could possibly take a good look at the aircraft? The J-10 isn't terribly more advanced than anything the U.S. currently fields, but it can't hurt to take a look.

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17 years 7 months

Posts: 4,951

An order of MiG-35 (OVT) would be a great first step for a BVR fighter, although an Su-35 serves them better. They still need a one-up on Iran and I'm not so sure MiG-35 offers that. If they ordered any Chinese planes only two come to mind to meet their needs, JL-7A and JF-17.

JL-7A offers them a tactical precision-strike bomber that threatens Tehran. This option also has an ASuW component. The Iraqis still have to consider their needs for standoff strike and for closing the straits.

he JF-17, using a Russian engine and equipped with SD-10, gives them a stopgap against Iranian F-4's. The MiG-35 numbers being kicked around don't look good enough to cover the border with Iran, let alone the rest of the borders.

The J-10 isn't a realistic option. It's a regressive step behind the F-16, probably costs more in the long run, and relies on an unpredictable supplier. They may as well order more F-16's. The Russian engine is good, but it's third party support to keep it running. The Chinese engine is only going to be extra work to keep it going.

If they get MiG-35 it does leave open the idea of J-31 being an option. Until the J-31 proves itself, I wouldn't get too presumptuous it will outperform the MiG-35. Just keeping an open mind here.

The real interesting battle will be SAM systems. S-300 or HQ-9?

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 7,989

The day palembang quits his nonsense posts, I'll get out of the USAF (when I can...ha ha), and become a mime...

Did you guys know the J-10B can actually fly into Low Earth Orbit and dock with the International Space Station? :)

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15 years 5 months

Posts: 6,983

It's over the top, but supposedly, J-10B bested Chinese Sukhoi's, both imported and clones,
there was a thread about it here.
There are some issues since it hasnt been exported anywhere, no track record, reliability question-marks, support question-marks,
frankly, with the non-existent info coming from China, a long chain of question-marks

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15 years 3 months

Posts: 1,912

Yep, as per recent chit-chat J-10 has not been cleared for export. J-10B hasn't even entered service with PLAAF. Either way no comparison to the Typhoon. But the the Typhoon is one of the most expensive pieces of hardware.

So besides F-16, I can think of Gripen, MiG-35, KAI FA-50, improved JF-17.

Maybe F/A-18E/F.

1. Typhoon has more range than J-10
2. In reality, J-10B can drop no bombs.
3. Quit your bullsh!t

OMG We mite agree on something! All kidding aside the Typhoon is vastly more capable than the J-10. At from least what is know publically.

Honestly, in my opinion the F-16 is a very good choice in the case of Iraq. Yet, any 4/4.5 Fighter would work just as well. Be it the Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, or Super Hornet. Yet, as it already has late model F-16's in Service. Another batch would likely be the best choice.......(IMO)

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11 years 5 months

Posts: 1,149

Iraq might have oil but it's hardly a country rich enough to have a Typhoon based airforce.

Either they get Chinese fighters (like the J10), second hand F16s with AMRAAM integrated, or Gripen E with Meteor.

Typhoon would be too expensive.

Btw QuantumFX. Doesnt this look like A2G?
http://media.powerapple.com/uploadimages/1235847937_3284.jpg

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12 years 7 months

Posts: 4,731

That's alot of money there. Surely if they want to they can easily reach the minimum 200 fighters (though imo they need 300 at least to be equal to KSA and Turkey).
36 F-16, 72 Su-30 and/or Su-35, 72 MiG-35 and 36 KAI T-50 plus 6-8 advanced AEWs can easily be achieved!
Imo, the french and the british must be mad for making crap offers to a potentially very important future customer like Iraq, but i guess their governments are in the hands of US, even if it means BILLIONS lost for their own countries' defence industry. (same like the Egypt story, the french were not INTERESTED to offer the Rafale to them! Are they nuts or what?)
They can get all the stuff that they need and is refused by the yanks, and China can start becoming an important weapons supplier by delivering and array of UAVs (refused by the americans) to help against the terrorist threat. This, IF there is the will and foresight in the iraqi leadership. I'm just hoping the russians won't cave in to whatever pressure and /or empty promises the yanks, saudis, turks, israelis will put on them like with Iran, that would be a bummer...

In Middleast it is not enough to sell weopons (those weopons are too complicated anyway with long training) but rather standing up with allies more important. see Syria & Iran example where not much advanced weopons delivered in quantities.


http://en.apa.az/xeber_russia_deploying_offensive_military_vehi_200739.html
Russia deploying offensive military vehicles in territories around Caspian Sea and Black Sea

China simply not commited to stand up with allies in Middlest. so large scale export of Chinese weopons can be ruled out.
Turkey buying HQ-9 is a erratic decision showing displeasure.