Read the forum code of contact
By: - 7th August 2013 at 07:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) is one of the wierdest airforces in the world IMO for two reasons:Operate a total of 5 combat types in a fleet that's only 60 aircraft strong)
18 x Su-30MKM
8 x F/A-18D
10 x MiG-29 (6 more unserviceable)
6 x RF/F-5E/F (maybe 8 more in reserve)
19 x Hawk 108/208Small squadrons
In the past they were even wierder with really small squadrons (8-9 aircraft). E.g. original fleet of 18 MiG-29s was divided between 2 squadrons.
This still persists with small F/A-18 and F-5 fleets as well as Hawk 108/208 fleet which is assigned to two squadrons.
MiG-29 squadrons were apparently merged due to lack of aircraft, whilst all Su-30MKMs were assigned to a single "normal" sized squadron.
I am not sure that the MAF was really happy with their Su30 ( payback for debt). So if you put asside that particular example, the OB makes sense. They were only unlucky with their Migs as many other airforces dealing with MikG at a specific time.
By: - 7th August 2013 at 07:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Most airforces with such small fleets try to standardise on 1-2 types. It makes sense from a logistics perspective, a training perspective and even an operational perspective (e.g. 8 X F/A-18D doesn't actually allow for that many operational examples).
By: - 7th August 2013 at 20:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I am not sure that the MAF was really happy with their Su30 ( payback for debt). So if you put asside that particular example, the OB makes sense. They were only unlucky with their Migs as many other airforces dealing with MikG at a specific time.
Sources?
Also I wasn't aware the Su-30MKM had anything to do with debt payback.
By: - 7th August 2013 at 21:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sources?Also I wasn't aware the Su-30MKM had anything to do with debt payback.
Complete fail from myself. I was wrong. It seems I mixed with another Asian country but can't remember wich one. My source was a review on either AFM or AI but as I don't hve my archives with me it's does not help.
Thx for correcting me TR1
By: - 8th August 2013 at 17:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hmmm...
On its own the MKM is a highly capable fighter with good Radar/IRST, highly advanced Saab Avitronics MAWS with 360degree optical and laser warning, Damocles targeting pods and KNIRTI SAP-518 ECM pods, not to mention the extremely agile thrust vector/canard combo. But at the time it is a unique fighter that even Russia does not use, so all operational tactics and procedures has to be written from scratch (with the help of IAF). Coupled with erratic support from Russia, it is not as beloved by RMAF as the F/A-18 Hornet (regular updates, excellent support; all tactics, procedures and manuals from USN...)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]219631[/ATTACH]
In the near past RMAF buys both from russia and the west as a hedge should any one of them withheld support in times of crisis (as happened to Indonesia during the east timor conflict) but in the 80's when most of its aircraft is western sourced, and squadrons operating the A-4PTM skyhawks (2 sqns) have 20 planes each.
In the near future the F-5 and the MiG's are planned to be replaced by a new MRCA (if funds permitting), and if the beloved Hornets could be persuaded to be sold to other current users, the fighter types could be reduced to just 3 types (MKM hi-end, The New MRCAs mid and Hawks low-end)
By: - 9th August 2013 at 19:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
agreed most of the Malaysian sources sum it up as
Russian:
pros: very few political barriers
cons: flakey support and costs
US:
pros: good support and operation costs
cons: more potential political barriers
short term solution
consolidate on just two types, get more Su-30MKM, maintain existing F-18 Hornets and perhaps convince Finland or Kuwait to give up theirs
retire F-5, Mig-29, Hawk
long term solution
even more Su-30MKM, a new type to replace the F-18 Hornet.. either something European or Super Hornet.
they should just mimic India and do Flankers and Rafales.. at least that way they can share some training and equipment with them too.
By: - 9th August 2013 at 19:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Never seen MKM's with ECM pods, any more pics with them?
By: - 10th August 2013 at 01:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That pic was when they did a flyby above USS George Washington in 2012. Notice that the SAP-518 pods for the MKM has formation slime lights on them, unlike other SAP-518 pods previously seen. Those pods probably there to update their electronic emissions database?
RMAF rarely hangs anything on the MKM during public displays.
As for the f-5 and mig replacements, for now IMO ideally if RMAF could get their hands on more f/a-18's if possible the low houred Kuwaiti ones. But there is no indication of the Kuwaitis wanting to get new fighters, so the best choice I think would be getting some gripens, its low operating costs would be ideal for RMAF. As for the hawk 208s, it is basically the workhorse of the RMAF, I don't see it getting replaced by something similar (not in production anymore, only Indonesia and Oman are the other operators. Is Oman replacing theirs with the Typhoon?)
By: - 12th August 2013 at 02:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Kuwait is apparently looking at F/A-18 replacement and it's all meant to be tied in with UAE competition.
By: - 12th August 2013 at 10:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If can be summarize from various Malaysian sources (media and forum), RMAF will keep their Flankers MKM, seems they quite happy with MKM. It's the Mig they have problem with. One source that I got indicated Malaysia try to bargain the existing F-18D as 'downpayment' for SHornet sq. Seems if they can, they want to replace the Hornet, Mig, and F-5 with one type of whatever win. It will take time, since Malaysian still bargain for better deal. SHornet off course being consideres, but Rafale do seems make aggressive campaigning also. Also SAAB making campaign with RMAF too.
So in couple years ahead, RMAF can be maintaining only 3 types. Flankers MKM, Hawk 200, and whatever going to win as replacement for Hornet, Mig, and F-5. Seems a reasonable portfolio.
By: - 12th August 2013 at 13:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the Su-30 is a good high end type and 25 Gripens to replace Hornet, Mig-29 and F-5 would give a good mix and when the time comes 18 to 20 Yak-130's to replace the Hawks may be a good move to keep the East West Mix also 6 or so MPA's would not go a miss at this time
By: - 12th August 2013 at 16:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
they should just mimic India and do Flankers and Rafales.. at least that way they can share some training and equipment with them too.
+1
By: - 12th August 2013 at 19:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) is one of the wierdest airforces in the world IMO for two reasons:
Two factors need to be considered -
1. The traditional role of the RMAF for many decades was assisting the army's counter insurgency efforts [transport, MEDEVAC, fire support, etc], thus the low number of fighters it operated, in comparison to the number of fix and rotary transports it has.
2. In recent times, major defence purchaces were based on improving existing bilateral ties, transfers of technology and industrial offsets; these were the main factors in awarding contracts; that's why the RMAF has several fighter types...
10 x MiG-29 (6 more unserviceable)
Their engines need to be overhauled and thus were placed in storage. The RMAF decided against sending the engines back to Russia as the Fulcrums are to be retired.
I am not sure that the MAF was really happy with their Su30 ( payback for debt).
The decision to order 18 Su-30MKMS in 2002 was never due to an outstanding debt.
But at the time it is a unique fighter that even Russia does not use, so all operational tactics and procedures has to be written from scratch (with the help of IAF). Coupled with erratic support from Russia, it is not as beloved by RMAF as the F/A-18 Hornet (regular updates, excellent support; all tactics, procedures and manuals from USN...)
The RMAF had to develop its own combat syllabus for the MKMs as the Russians were not able to provide assistance. Help that was provided by India was in developing a training and maintenance syllabus.
A major plus point in ordering the Hornets is product support provided via FMS. Shortly after receiving its 8 'Ds' the RMAF issued an RFP for 18 'C's but then came the 1997 Economic Crisis.
If can be summarize from various Malaysian sources (media and forum), RMAF will keep their Flankers MKM, seems they quite happy with MKM. It's the Mig they have problem with.
First of all, back in 2002 the RMAF never wanted Su-30s, what it wanted was the Super Hornet. A major problem is that the RMAF customised its own variant of the Su-30, it was fitted with a number of non-Russian made stuff and integration didn't come cheap. The MKMs have German radios, French LCD panels, a South African MAWS and a French INS; and off course Indonesian practice bombs:]. The RMAF was offered MICA and TopOwl in place of the Adder and Shura but decided against it after being notified of what it would cost to integrate these to the MKM.
Under the contract signed for the MKM, there is provision for it to be fitted with a data link.
With regards to the Fulcrums, the RMAF was never unhappy with the actual aircraft per say; what it was unhappy about was the whole process of oobtaining spares and product support. Another problem faced by the RMAF was the TBO and MTBF of the engines and other flight components on the Fulcrums.
One source that I got indicated Malaysia try to bargain the existing F-18D as 'downpayment' for SHornet sq.
Back in 2002, Boeing offered to accept the 8 F/A-18Ds as part payment for 18 Super Hornets. Although most reports state that these aircraft would have gone to the USMC, another report mentions Switzerland as a recipient.
I think the Su-30 is a good high end type and 25 Gripens to replace Hornet, Mig-29 and F-5 would give a good mix and when the time comes 18 to 20 Yak-130's to replace the Hawks may be a good move to keep the East West Mix also 6 or so MPA's would not go a miss at this time
The RMAFs new MRCA - when it is eventually ordered - will replace the Fulcrums and the F-5s, not the Hornets. Unless it is forced to, the RMAF will never get another Russian made aircraft.
The 2nd pic on the right shows a Hawk with some 'art'. In May this year, Hornets and Hawks conducted 2 strikes on Philippine gunmen, using Paveways and CRV-7s. The pic on the far right shows MKMs flying over the USS George Washington.
By: - 12th August 2013 at 20:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
2. In recent times, major defence purchaces were based on improving existing bilateral ties, transfers of technology and industrial offsets; these were the main factors in awarding contracts; that's why the RMAF has several fighter types...
Sounds very similar to the indian process, which explains the numerous types in that airforce as well.
The decision to order 18 Su-30MKMS in 2002 was never due to an outstanding debt.First of all, back in 2002 the RMAF never wanted Su-30s, what it wanted was the Super Hornet.
Unless it is forced to, the RMAF will never get another Russian made aircraft.
Some very interesting detail there. So why did the SH deal never work out and what was then the reason to opt for a customized Su-30? Why has the RMAF now decided against Russian purchases and what other sources are they considering?
By: - 12th August 2013 at 21:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some very interesting detail there. So why did the SH deal never work out and what was then the reason to opt for a customized Su-30? Why has the RMAF now decided against Russian purchases and what other sources are they considering?
The SH deal never worked out because the Russians offered the RMAF a much better [from a Malaysian government perspective] off-set package [and also sent a Malaysian to space!]; it was a decision made by the country's political leadership. Forced to accept the Su-30, the RMAF then decided on a customised version of the Su-30 because what was offered by the Russians did not fit the RMAFs operational requirements. The Russians were also unable to provide a simulator, a targeting pod and an MAWS. Within industry circles here, it is known that the Russians were not very happy as all the chosen Western stuff resulted in a much lower profit margin for them.
It can be argued that the RMAF should have gone down the cheaper route of not integrating major non-Russians items to its Su-30 - like what Indonesia and Vietnam did.
From Day One, the RMAF has been use to dealing with Western suppliers; they got a huge shock in the mid-1990's when they discovered that the Russians operated in a slightly diffferent manner. Another problem the RMAF found was that the engines and other components on the Fulcrums did not have the same MTBF and TBO as Western types operated.
The contenders to replace the Fulcrums are the Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet and the Gripen. Cost is a very important factor here. SAAB has an advantage as it is able to offer Gripens on lease, together with the Ericsson Eriye, to fulfill on longstanding RMAF requirement for an AEW platform. It was reported some time ago that BAE Systems offered to provide some former RAF Typhoon Tranche 1s for next to nothing if the RMAF ordered about 8 newly built Trache 3s [this deal was neither confirmed by BAE Systems or the RMAF]. This deal was reportedy veteod by other Typhoon partner nations.
By: - 12th August 2013 at 23:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fariz, thank you so much for some very interesting insights into the RMAF.
By: - 13th August 2013 at 01:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The contenders to replace the Fulcrums are the Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet and the Gripen. Costs is a very important factor here. SAAB has an advantage as it is able to offer Gripens on lease, together with the Ericsson Eriye, to fulfill on longstanding RMAF requirement for an AEW platform. It was reported some time ago that BAE Systems offered to provide some former RAF Typhoon Tranche 1s for next to nothing if the RMAF ordered about 8 newly built Trache 3s [this deal was neither confirmed by BAE Systems or the RMAF]. This deal was reportedy veteod by other Typhoon partner nations.
@Fariz, thanks for your insight. Political leadership in SEA (with exeception perhaps Singapore) more than often make a deal that not really suited for their users (armed forces) need. I try to concluded what I can gather so far from Malaysian program for Fulcrum, F-5, and potentialy Hornet replacement. RMAF wants SHornet, Political Leadership wants Rafale, but more and more due to budget and operational cost, Gripen can be the choices. Is that fair conclusion ?
1 sq of Flankers MKM, 1 sq of Hawk, and potentially 2 sq of Gripen plus Erieye as AEW assets can be a potent combination for RMAF.
By: - 13th August 2013 at 01:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Those are the MSA gallet LA100 helmets also worn by RMAF MiG-29 pilots. It has attachment for the standard russian helmet mounted sights.
By: - 13th August 2013 at 02:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Although the said MRCA requirement has been around for some time, until now there is no release of any official documents/technical requirements/RFQ for them by the Malaysian government. And the supposed retirement date for the MiG-29 is in 2015.
Unofficially some quarters in the RMAF prefers the SHornet. Eurofighter and Dassault are lobbying hard for their new fighters. There are also news of gripen lease offered directly by the Swedish government, only the tech support contract would be with Saab.
Posts: 2,120
By: thobbes - 7th August 2013 at 05:33
The Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) is one of the wierdest airforces in the world IMO for two reasons:
Operate a total of 5 combat types in a fleet that's only 60 aircraft strong)
18 x Su-30MKM
8 x F/A-18D
10 x MiG-29 (6 more unserviceable)
6 x RF/F-5E/F (maybe 8 more in reserve)
19 x Hawk 108/208
Small squadrons
In the past they were even wierder with really small squadrons (8-9 aircraft). E.g. original fleet of 18 MiG-29s was divided between 2 squadrons.
This still persists with small F/A-18 and F-5 fleets as well as Hawk 108/208 fleet which is assigned to two squadrons.
MiG-29 squadrons were apparently merged due to lack of aircraft, whilst all Su-30MKMs were assigned to a single "normal" sized squadron.