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By: - 7th March 2013 at 00:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
La Fayettes I wonder, or possibly a Leygues? (rated as a Destroyer?)
By: - 7th March 2013 at 00:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
According to forum where I read the rumour, the speculation was that frigates involved were new Aquitaine-Class (FREMM) which would be leased to Greece as opposed to being delivered to French Navy.
No idea how reliable this rumour is. Greece isn't exactly in a position to introduce new equipment.
By: - 7th March 2013 at 10:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
According to forum where I read the rumour, the speculation was that frigates involved were new Aquitaine-Class (FREMM) which would be leased to Greece as opposed to being delivered to French Navy.No idea how reliable this rumour is. Greece isn't exactly in a position to introduce new equipment.
The rumour is solid. Greece will lease at least two FREMM straight from the shipyard which were aimed to be for the French navy. These will be probably the third and fifth ship in the production line as the fourth is going to Morocco.
Packaged with this deal are the Atlantiques. 4 of them I think.
the P-3 have been withdrawn as they have reached the limit of their frames.
By: - 7th March 2013 at 11:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
greece maybe can't afford introducing new equipment, but they still have needs... possibly, a lease is more affordable for some time, allowing to maintain a necessary capability for now
By: - 7th March 2013 at 11:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
According to forum where I read the rumour, the speculation was that frigates involved were new Aquitaine-Class (FREMM) which would be leased to Greece as opposed to being delivered to French Navy.No idea how reliable this rumour is. Greece isn't exactly in a position to introduce new equipment.
My post here of some relevance I think.
By: - 7th March 2013 at 11:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
They are constantly being threatened by Turkey. Greece needs a stronger than average military
Not to put too fine a point on it, but even if they could maintain 4% of GDP on military spending -- which they evidently can't -- Turkey is going to run away from them over the coming decades anyway.
Maybe Greek strategic forecasters should've urged resolving longstanding issues whilst Greece still had reasonable standing to negotiate from.
By: - 7th March 2013 at 11:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why not so? Acoustic Atlantique 2 system is way ahead of Orion's anw (see Malaysian tests...)
By: - 7th March 2013 at 11:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not to put too fine a point on it, but even if they could maintain 4% of GDP on military spending -- which they evidently can't -- Turkey is going to run away from them over the coming decades anyway.Maybe Greek strategic forecasters should've urged resolving longstanding issues whilst Greece still had reasonable standing to negotiate from.
They never tried to beat Turkey in the arms race. Just maintain a military strong enough to make (Turkey) possible enemies think twice. That is far from being unreasonable.
By: - 7th March 2013 at 12:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hard to defend the wisdom of Greek policy when the country is circling the drain and wouldn't be if policy had been otherwise.
Still, hardly surprising that short term expediency (in this case unsustainable military spending) took precedence over long-term responsible governance. It's a structural flaw in most democratic nations.
By: - 7th March 2013 at 14:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hard to defend the wisdom of Greek policy when the country is circling the drain and wouldn't be if policy had been otherwise.Still, hardly surprising that short term expediency (in this case unsustainable military spending) took precedence over long-term responsible governance. It's a structural flaw in most democratic nations.
Imagine you have a house. A modest house, with your very little possessions.
Now imagine that (for whatever reason, but even if you were foolish, with your finances) you are becoming very very poor. No also imagine that your next door neighbour has told you that he will kill you and take away your house and now you are weak it is all the more easy.
What would you do? Spend your last few dollars wisely to get your finances in order or buy a gun to protect yourself from the guy who wants to take your house?
unless you are a firm believer of the idea that since Greeks were "careless" with their economy they should now suffer the loss of large parts of their country to an invader!
which is it?
By: - 7th March 2013 at 14:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
unless you are a firm believer of the idea that since Greeks were "careless" with their economy they should now suffer the loss of large parts of their country to an invader!
No, that's what you seem to believe. In your world, if Greece doesn't keep up then Turkey will attack. Well, Greece isn't going to keep up; in case you haven't noticed the country is broke whilst Turkey moves from strength-to-strength. :rolleyes:
By: - 7th March 2013 at 15:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
More info here
http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/fremm-la-france-propose-la-grece-de-louer-deux-fregates
It seems everybody wins with the deal (DCN wins cash, the HN two brand new ships, the French government a break in its defense budget) except the MN which will be stuck with its aging ships for a few years more.
By: - 7th March 2013 at 15:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, that's what you seem to believe. In your world, if Greece doesn't keep up then Turkey will attack. Well, Greece isn't going to keep up; in case you haven't noticed the country is broke whilst Turkey moves from strength-to-strength. :rolleyes:
I seem to believe?
Have you been keeping up with current events? Do you know what a Casus belli is ? Do you know that Greece is the only european western country threatened by one?
If Greece was to disband her military on any given Monday, it would not exist as a country by Friday the same week!
If you are not convinced by my words, read a bit of contemporary history of balkan affairs.
By: - 7th March 2013 at 15:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Time to wave goodbye to Greece then. Mind you, I'm not sure being ruled from Anatolia would actually be much worse than being ruled by German bankers. At least Muslims don't charge interest. :p
By: - 7th March 2013 at 15:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If Greece was to disband her military on any given Monday, it would not exist as a country by Friday the same week!
Yes, Turkish Janissaries would sweep through Athens and horse archers riders from the Crimean Khanate will burn and destroy half of Thrace...
While Turkey and Greece have been at each others throats for centuries, its about time for that to end, and Rii is right, Greek politicians and high ranking military should have recognised that in the medium term they have to get some sort of living agreement with the Turks. If not Greece will be facing a not very friendly neighbour with a ten times bigger population, and a ten times bigger economy, not a pretty sight...
By: - 7th March 2013 at 16:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think Turkey should seize the opportunity by offering to backstop Greece (with minimal conditions designed to shame greedy Germany/etc.) in exchange for a favourable settlement. In the short-term it'd involve real sacrifice, in the longer term it could reshape the entire picture not only in terms of Greece and Turkey, but Turkey and the EU also, and indeed Turkey's 'soft power' more broadly. Think of it as a miniature Marshall Plan. Bold, daring ... history books are made of such stuff.
Ok, back to reality and rule by bureaucrats. :p
By: - 7th March 2013 at 16:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think Turkey should seize the opportunity by offering to backstop Greece (with minimal conditions designed to shame greedy Germany/etc.) in exchange for a favourable settlement. In the short-term it'd involve real sacrifice, in the longer term it could reshape the entire picture not only in terms of Greece and Turkey, but Turkey and the EU also, and indeed Turkey's 'soft power' more broadly. Think of it as a miniature Marshall Plan. Bold, daring ... history books are made of such stuff.Ok, back to reality and rule by bureaucrats. :p
Rii
You still believe in Santa, right?!
Oh, by the way i have a very nice bridge for selling, you might be interested...
:D
By: - 7th March 2013 at 17:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
@Rii
My friend Nietzsche once wrote that:
"None of the recurrent enemies had the fortune to discover the hemlock, which could forever be rid of the Greeks!"
you are addressing these naive (forgive me but that is what they are) thoughts to the Greeks? Do you think it is the first time Greeks faced economic struggles or poverty? There isn't a single turn in its thousands of years of history that Greeks surrendered against ANY enemy no matter how strong!
Your probably don't understand things very well, perhaps you have some equally good suggestions for the Israelis and the Palestinians ?
We need to be realistic first of all and you and Sintra haven't been in this thread.
With all due respect.
By: - 7th March 2013 at 17:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
@RiiMy friend Nietzsche once wrote that:
"None of the recurrent enemies had the fortune to discover the hemlock, which could forever be rid of the Greeks!"you are addressing these naive (forgive me but that is what they are) thoughts to the Greeks? Do you think it is the first time Greeks faced economic struggles or poverty? There isn't a single turn in its thousands of years of history that Greeks surrendered against ANY enemy no matter how strong!
Your probably don't understand things very well, perhaps you have some equally good suggestions for the Israelis and the Palestinians ?
We need to be realistic first of all and you and Sintra haven't been in this thread.
With all due respect.
Falcon
When someone says something like "If Greece was to disband her military on any given Monday, it would not exist as a country by Friday the same week" who´s being irrealistic?
Cheers
Posts: 2,120
By: thobbes - 7th March 2013 at 00:01
Herard a rumour that Greece is to lease Atlantique 2s as well as some frigates from France.
Is this true?
I note on Scramble's Greek orbat page that the P-3B's of 353 MNAS are listed as withdrawn from use.