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  • TR1
    TR1
    http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
    • Oct 2010
    • 9817

    Supposedly they have made progress on the radar mast for the Mi-28N.
    Not sure if we will see it before the Mi-28NM though.
    sigpic

    Comment

    • Tu 160
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2013
      • 157

      Those are still very good prices for these 2 excellent attack helos and westen/US helos are much more overpriced.It is a good idea to produce both as is being done as combined output of Kamov and Mill will replenish Russian Army avaition twice as fast.
      Is Mil likely to fix the vibration issue anytime soon and is it likely future production Mi28 will finally get the mast radar?

      Also how many Mi28N were made or delivered to Russian VVS in 2012?
      Originally posted by MSphere View Post
      Ka-52 around $27-28mil, Mi-28N around $20mil (I suspect without radar).
      AFAIK, the radar works but suffers from poor MTBF due to excessive vibrations.
      Last edited by Tu 160; 13th January 2013, 02:01.
      TU 160 STATISTICALLY IS THE LARGEST,HEAVIEST AND MOST POWERFUL COMBAT AIRCRAFT AND BOMBER EVER BUILT

      Comment

      • Berkut
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2011
        • 2216

        I don't know, 27 mil USD sounds like awfully a lot. If i am not horribly mistaken AH-64 is around that, if not less.

        Comment

        • MSphere
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2010
          • 8983

          Originally posted by Berkut View Post
          I don't know, 27 mil USD sounds like awfully a lot. If i am not horribly mistaken AH-64 is around that, if not less.
          Just like with aircraft, the unit prices are very hard to compare until you know exactly what is included. The 2012 unit cost of a new AH-64D Block III was something over $32mil pure flyaway. The figure comparable to the Ka-52's quote would be around $52-60mil, however.

          As a rule of thumb, Russian designs are still ca 40% cheaper than US designs in the same class.
          Last edited by MSphere; 13th January 2013, 02:39.

          Comment

          • MSphere
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2010
            • 8983

            Originally posted by Tu 160 View Post
            Those are still very good prices for these 2 excellent attack helos and westen/US helos are much more overpriced.It is a good idea to produce both as is being done as combined output of Kamov and Mill will replenish Russian Army avaition twice as fast.
            Is Mil likely to fix the vibration issue anytime soon and is it likely future production Mi28 will finally get the mast radar?

            Also how many Mi28N were made or delivered to Russian VVS in 2012?
            Despite having been described as a much more conservative and "proven" concept, the Mi-28N has not been very praised while the more complex Kamov has shown a quite remarkable reliability thus far.

            The low cost of the Havoc results from the fact that it shares quite much with the Hind family while the only things the Alligator has in common with the Mi-24/Mi-35 are engines and tyres.

            I don't think the Mi-28N will get the radar but the further upgrade called Mi-28NM might.
            Last edited by MSphere; 13th January 2013, 02:38.

            Comment

            • Tu 160
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2013
              • 157

              Any time estimate when the Mi 28NM will enter production?
              What is the quantity of Ka 52 that were manufactured in 2012 and delivered to Russian VVS and what is the quantity of Mi 28N manufactured in 2012 and delivered also,seems to be an absence of news on this?
              Originally posted by MSphere View Post
              Despite having been described as a much more conservative and "proven" concept, the Mi-28N has not been very praised while the more complex Kamov has shown a quite remarkable reliability thus far.

              The low cost of the Havoc results from the fact that it shares quite much with the Hind family while the only things the Alligator has in common with the Mi-24/Mi-35 are engines and tyres.

              I don't think the Mi-28N will get the radar but the further upgrade called Mi-28NM might.
              TU 160 STATISTICALLY IS THE LARGEST,HEAVIEST AND MOST POWERFUL COMBAT AIRCRAFT AND BOMBER EVER BUILT

              Comment

              • TR1
                TR1
                http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                • Oct 2010
                • 9817

                What does the Mi-28 share with the Hind aside from the engines?
                Both Ka-52 and Mi-28 use VK-2500 now..I guess you could argue the modernized Hind has a similar rotor-arrangement to Mi-28, but it ws modernized based on the Mi-28, so it is not a matter of Mi-28 similarity with Mi-24.
                sigpic

                Comment

                • MSphere
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 8983

                  Originally posted by TR1 View Post
                  What does the Mi-28 share with the Hind aside from the engines?
                  Both Ka-52 and Mi-28 use VK-2500 now..I guess you could argue the modernized Hind has a similar rotor-arrangement to Mi-28, but it ws modernized based on the Mi-28, so it is not a matter of Mi-28 similarity with Mi-24.
                  Main gearbox, transmission units, VR-29 and HR-29 gearboxes by Reduktor-PM are all common with Mi-35M and Mi-17V-5 or -7 and they are directly derived from Mi-24. Then there is a number of other stuff like oil coolers, even cockpit displays and part of the avionics.

                  Comment

                  • TR1
                    TR1
                    http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                    • Oct 2010
                    • 9817

                    All those upgrades were fielded on the Mi-24 well after the Mi-28 passed testing...The Mi-35M exists because they took items off the Mi-28 and applied them to the Mi-24.
                    sigpic

                    Comment

                    • calimero
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2007
                      • 197

                      Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                      The Mi-26T has one function - go to A, lift the cargo, deliver to B, drop. Exactly what avionics do you really need for that?
                      I don't know but I suppose there must be a reason since the A and M models got new avionics.

                      Comment

                      • MSphere
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 8983

                        Originally posted by TR1 View Post
                        All those upgrades were fielded on the Mi-24 well after the Mi-28 passed testing...The Mi-35M exists because they took items off the Mi-28 and applied them to the Mi-24.
                        Which type got them first is irrelevant. Important is that you have three types sharing common engines, transmissions and gearboxes - that saves you lotsa quid.

                        Comment

                        • MSphere
                          Senior Member
                          • Feb 2010
                          • 8983

                          Originally posted by calimero View Post
                          I don't know but I suppose there must be a reason since the A and M models got new avionics.
                          It is not necessarily a must.. Look at Mi-17. There are many variations incl. the Kazan Mi-8MTV-5 with full glass cockpit (IBKV-17 or KNEI-8 complex) but most of the new versions are still delivered with analogue layout. A brief comparison, just from my head

                          Analogue layout (recent deliveries)
                          Czech Mi-171Sh, Croatian Mi-171Sh, Russian Mi-8AMTSh, Russian Mi-8MTV-5, Afghan Mi-17V-5, Azeri Mi-171, Colombian Mi-171, Ghanian Mi-17MD, Nepalese Mi-17-1V, Polish Mi-17-1V, Polish Mi-17AE, Rwandan Mi-17MD, Thai Mi-17V-5, Venezuelan Mi-17V-5

                          Digital layout (recent deliveries)
                          Indian Mi-17V-5 (KNEI-8), Colombian Mi-17V-5 (I suspect this is an Israeli upgrade of the previously delivered analogue birds), Kenyan Mi-171E (KNEI-8), Venezuelan Mi-172SAR (LAHAV suite)

                          Quite a difference, isn't it?
                          Last edited by MSphere; 13th January 2013, 12:43.

                          Comment

                          • Tu 160
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2013
                            • 157

                            So now already the Ka52 and Mi28N are being mass produced with the new VK-2500 engine? The Klimov TV3-117 engines were very good and rated at 2200hp each,whats the hp rating of the new VK-2500 engine?
                            So now the max speed,acceleration,service seeling and high altitude performace in mountain regions and max weapons load charactersitics have increased on the Ka52 and Mi28N?
                            TU 160 STATISTICALLY IS THE LARGEST,HEAVIEST AND MOST POWERFUL COMBAT AIRCRAFT AND BOMBER EVER BUILT

                            Comment

                            • MSphere
                              Senior Member
                              • Feb 2010
                              • 8983

                              Originally posted by Tu 160 View Post
                              So now already the Ka52 and Mi28N are being mass produced with the new VK-2500 engine? The Klimov TV3-117 engines were very good and rated at 2200hp each,whats the hp rating of the new VK-2500 engine?
                              Series Mi-28N use Ukrainian TV3-117VMA-SB3 engines. Ka-52s have TV3-117VMAs which should be replaced by VK-3000 lineage with over 2700shp take-off performance.

                              Originally posted by Tu 160 View Post
                              So now the max speed,acceleration,service seeling and high altitude performace in mountain regions and max weapons load charactersitics have increased on the Ka52 and Mi28N?
                              They have not, that is a thing of the future.

                              Comment

                              • mack8
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Nov 2009
                                • 2114

                                Slightly off-topic, does anyone know what happened with Mr. Andrey Fomin's Take-off magazine (www.take-off.ru) website? I couldn't access it at all for the last 2 weeks ...
                                --------------
                                NO to NATO
                                NO to WAR!

                                Comment

                                • TR1
                                  TR1
                                  http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                                  • Oct 2010
                                  • 9817

                                  According to Dimmi:

                                  Двигатели: 2 х турбовальных двигателя ТВЗ-117ВМА (ВМ модификация "А") мощностью по 2200 л.с. (2500 л.с. по западным данным - en.wikipedia.org) разработки ОКБ им.В.Я.Климова, в серии с 1986 г. На вертолеты выпуска 2010 г. и позже (начиная с борта №01 белого) устанавливаются двигатели ВК-2500-02 - модификация двигателя ТВ3-117. Мощность двигателя на чрезвычайном режиме - 2700 л.с. Информация по новой модификации двигателя подтверждена в интервью Главкома ВВС России от 13.02.2012 г.

                                  Mi-28s from 2010 and on use VK-2500.
                                  It is still a Motor-Sich (Ukraine) product- but Klimov is in the process of making the engine 100% (or close) Russian. 50 are planned for 2013.
                                  sigpic

                                  Comment

                                  • MSphere
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Feb 2010
                                    • 8983

                                    Do Russians have different means of calculating and measuring horsepower?
                                    Last edited by MSphere; 14th January 2013, 01:29.

                                    Comment

                                    • Austin
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Oct 2003
                                      • 6471

                                      Originally posted by mack8 View Post
                                      Slightly off-topic, does anyone know what happened with Mr. Andrey Fomin's Take-off magazine (www.take-off.ru) website? I couldn't access it at all for the last 2 weeks ...
                                      Never had problems accessing it in past 2 weeks or even today , could be your DNS issue , try using opendns and see.
                                      "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                                      Comment

                                      • Berkut
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2011
                                        • 2216

                                        Su-35S to arrive at the end of the week to GLITs.

                                        http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2013/01/14/247041.html

                                        Later they will go to Lipetsk.

                                        Comment

                                        • mack8
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Nov 2009
                                          • 2114

                                          OKB Sukhoi, KnAAPO and NAPO merged into a single company on January 1st.
                                          http://sukhoi.org/news/company/?id=5046
                                          --------------
                                          NO to NATO
                                          NO to WAR!

                                          Comment

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