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  • Sens
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2000
    • 12298

    Originally posted by Tu 160 View Post
    Su 35 is in a different class its a heavy fighter with heavy fighter capabilities while the Rafale and Typhoon are medium fighters with medium fighter capabilities about the same as a Mig 29M2. Heavy fighter capabilities are>then medium fighter capabilities. Su 35 is a much more powerful fighter and a larger fighter than the Rafale or Typhoon which are about the size and weight of Mig 29. Su 35 for instance has 2 31,900lbf engines vs only 2 17,000 lbf for the Rafale which is less than baseline old Mig 29 engines and and 20,000lbf for Typhoon which is same as Mig29M2 or Mig 29K
    Su 35 OLS 35 IRST is superior and more powerful to the Rafale and Typhoon OLS which are about the same in capability to old Soviet IRST on original Su 27.
    Su 35 Irbis E radar while Pesa as is on the earlier Typhoon, Irbis E is much larger and much much more powerful and capable then the small Rafael and Typhoon radar,Rafale and Typhoon don;t have even close to the engine power necessary to operate such a powerful radar as Irbis E on Su 35 or the Su 50 new AESA radar.
    Su 35 laser optical system is far superior to anything fielded on the Rafale or Tyhoon.
    Su 35 fuel capacity,range and payload is also much greater on Su 35 than the Rafale and Typhoon.
    Su 35 with thrust vectoring and 8,700 lbf more thrust than baseline Su 27 is much much more manuverable than the baseline Su 27 or the Rafael or the Typhoon.

    Yes you are right in that Rafale and Typhoon have very limited combat experince in Afganistan and Lybia which are cra*holes as adversaries without proper militaries but that says nothing about their capability vs Su 35, their earlier service entry is because they are earlier older systems and their electronics,computures,avionics are also older and less advanced than on the Su 35. So unfornutally for the Rafale and Typhoon they and they're capabilities are not in the same league as Su 35.
    Someone is playing the misleading number game. If something is suited for the main mission of the own AF depends on that very mission demands. The Rafale is built to the specifications demanded by France at first. In Europe none is looking for Flankers the operating cost in mind as none bought the F-15s for the same reason.

    Comment

    • Sens
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2000
      • 12298

      Originally posted by Trident View Post
      I don't buy that for one second - that figure must exclude one or more significant items that on the other hand are included in the Su-30 price, such as development cost or production plant re-tooling. The Su-34 took *much* longer to develop, will likely never achieve a comparable production run, *no* funding was provided by foreign customers, it features *far* deeper structural changes compared to the basic Su-27, is noticeably larger physically and required an upgrade to the manufacturing plant for series production. It just isn't going to be cheaper on a like-for-like basis.

      Would you believe somebody who told you the F-15SA was cheaper than the F/A-18E (even allowing for carrier capability and that in this case it's the SH that is further removed from the basic airframe)?
      The main share of development cost for the Su-32/34 was payed by the Russian taxpayer in SU times. After the restart none demanded a refund of that cost from future sellings. All Russian military producers do not work under the rules of a free economy really. "Moscow" decides which one will be closed down or kept open. Political intrests overrule the economical ones every time. Selling high value items not to a realistic price harms the own economy in the long run.

      Comment

      • paralay
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Aug 2005
        • 1411

        Originally posted by Trident View Post
        Would you believe somebody who told you the F-15SA was cheaper than the F/A-18E (even allowing for carrier capability and that in this case it's the SH that is further removed from the basic airframe)?
        I agree. I do not understand why the Su-30MKI is 31,000 rubles per kilogram, and the Su-34 - 25 000 rubles per kilogram, although they were made in one country, one and the same firm at the same time.
        Nevertheless, this is a fact.

        Comment

        • Trident
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • May 2004
          • 3965

          Originally posted by paralay View Post
          Nevertheless, this is a fact.
          I don't doubt that a 37 million price tag for the Su-34 can be calculated without "lying" - it's just that there is no way the Su-30 will be more expensive when judged according to the same benchmark. Similarly, if you use the same methods on the Su-34 that give a 40 million price for the Su-30, the result is not going to be 37 million.
          sigpic

          Comment

          • Jō Asakura
            多聞天
            • Jan 2011
            • 1302

            Originally posted by paralay View Post
            Su-30 "Super Flanker" for India $ 92.5 million apiece.
            The number you're quoting ($4bn/42) is wrong because it's inclusive of 71 Mi-17 V5 helos ordered as part of the deal signed by VladP. In New Delhi last month.

            Unit cost for Su-30MKIs are notoriously difficult to come by. Bloomberg, Vedomosti, RIA, BBC etc. have underestimated the cost @ around $35m. This is patently false because the first Su-30MKM contract was ~$900m (for 18 aircraft equates to a unit cost of $50m).

            DID claims the contract signed last month is for 42 'Super-30's coming in @ $71.5m each (a more realistic figure), even though the report itself is littered with errors. HAL is understandably coy on the subject.

            http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-30mkis-05852/
            http://hal-india.com/SU-30_MKI_Contract_24-12-12.asp

            We may have to wait for Parliamentary minutes post Finance Ministry submission for the true figures to emerge, if they release them to the public.
            sigpic

            Comment

            • haavarla
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Dec 2008
              • 6702

              Well, it s is very interesting to know. I dying to find out really. Both Su-34, Su-30SM and Su-35S.

              Those new Su-27SM3 should by all account be dirt cheap at least. And the Su-34.. It has passed State Trials.
              It has entered long term serial production. All the Development cost has been dealt with over all these years.

              But how much have the Su-34 development program cost both SU and Russia? Its not a very large or demanding program. It can't be compaired with other program such as EF, Rafale or F-22/F-35.
              Last edited by haavarla; 23rd January 2013, 21:13.
              Thanks

              Comment

              • Berkut
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2011
                • 2216

                Originally posted by haavarla View Post
                Its not a very large or demanding program.
                Are you trolling?

                Comment

                • Lonevolk
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Aug 2005
                  • 746

                  Originally posted by Sens View Post
                  All Russian military producers do not work under the rules of a free economy really.
                  And your companies work under the rules of a "free" economy??

                  Who exactly are you kidding. I trade futures part time and take my word for it, the official economic statistics of western economies are not worth the paper they're written on. It's all smoke and mirrors and basically one giant ponzi scheme. Try trading using rational economic principles and figures and see how far you get...you'll be broke within a month.

                  Russia has a pretty good macro-economic environment and great potential if they play their cards right.


                  ....

                  The Su-34 and the Su-30 are essentially different class of aircraft despite their common origins. The closest western equivalent to the Su-34 was the F-111 not the F-15 or Eurofighter

                  Comment

                  • J-31 Burrito
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2012
                    • 295

                    Originally posted by Lonevolk View Post
                    And your companies work under the rules of a "free" economy??

                    Who exactly are you kidding. I trade futures part time and take my word for it, the official economic statistics of western economies are not worth the paper they're written on. It's all smoke and mirrors and basically one giant ponzi scheme. Try trading using rational economic principles and figures and see how far you get...you'll be broke within a month.

                    Russia has a pretty good macro-economic environment and great potential if they play their cards right.


                    ....

                    The Su-34 and the Su-30 are essentially different class of aircraft despite their common origins. The closest western equivalent to the Su-34 was the F-111 not the F-15 or Eurofighter
                    yeah and they retired the F-111 because it was a one trick pony. its too expensive to maintain dedicated aircraft in this day an age when multi-roles can cover MOST (not all) of the jobs.

                    Comment

                    • Sens
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 12298

                      The present Su-34 is the Russian "testbed" to introduce some fusion-work of the weapon-system similar the "Eurocanards" for A2G work and the related procedures. The related creation of software takes time, when the hardware is much less an issue. The Su-34 will be a very effective striker but a very expensive one as well similar the "Eurocanards". We will find many of the systems of the Su-34 in the Su-35S and PAKFA as well. In present Russia we will never learn something about the real cost of that program in total and the benefits from that for the other two named programs. Just optimistic claims in former Pravda-style. If I am wrong what does the opposition press in Russia claim about that very program?!

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-34
                      ...the total for 2015 to 2020 is shrinking over the years. Is the cut in numbers due to the rising share of development costs like in the West. Our better informed Russian friends can give us the details?!

                      Comment

                      • haavarla
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Dec 2008
                        • 6702

                        Originally posted by Berkut View Post
                        Are you trolling?
                        The Su-34 program did not recieve funding for years during late 90's you smuch.. but i guess you allready knew this.. but can't help your self..

                        Thats why the Su-34 program took forever, not because of its complexity or size.
                        Thanks

                        Comment

                        • J-31 Burrito
                          Senior Member
                          • Nov 2012
                          • 295

                          Originally posted by haavarla View Post
                          The Su-34 program did not recieve funding for years during late 90's you smuch.. but i guess you allready knew this.. but can't help your self..

                          Thats why the Su-34 program took forever, not because of its complexity or size.
                          harvey dent, no need to name call our local golden eagle.
                          and yes, its lack of funding and long development period for a relatively single purpose design makes it an expensive collection to maintain.

                          at least during the chaos thatis the 90s, the Su-30 line still saw relevent upgrades and the Russians shouldve piggy backed on the IAF order。well they are doing that now..but shouldve done that 10 years ago

                          Comment

                          • Rii
                            Rii
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2010
                            • 3449

                            Originally posted by Lonevolk View Post
                            And your companies work under the rules of a "free" economy??
                            Indeed. Laissez-faire capitalism has a very limited role to play in military matters and other items of strategic significance. The Americans are particularly deluded about this as their domestic market is generally large enough to afford a degree of market operation, yet even there when push comes to shove -- e.g. submarine construction -- the free market goes out the window, which is as it should be.

                            Comment

                            • TR1
                              TR1
                              http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                              • Oct 2010
                              • 9821

                              Originally posted by J-31 Burrito View Post
                              harvey dent, no need to name call our local golden eagle.
                              and yes, its lack of funding and long development period for a relatively single purpose design makes it an expensive collection to maintain.

                              at least during the chaos thatis the 90s, the Su-30 line still saw relevent upgrades and the Russians shouldve piggy backed on the IAF order。well they are doing that now..but shouldve done that 10 years ago
                              Who was going to pay for it 10 years ago?

                              It is like some of you guys live in utter denial of the economic situation and the armed force funding at the time.

                              Anyways even if Su-30 was ordered in bulk, NAPO would still have to be re-tooled for its production (or Su-35s), as Irkut was busy with export orders at the time (as well as for reasons of giving NAPO work and ensuring its existance). Su-34 did end up costing more for the RuAF out of the pocket, but it wanted (and still wants) a more specialized strike aircraft. At the end of the day that is what matters, and more and more Hellducks confirm this.

                              I, for one, am enjoying good numbers of Flankers being delivered to the RuAF; no point in dwelling on supposed missed opportunities that ignore the realities of the time.
                              Last edited by TR1; 24th January 2013, 03:57.
                              sigpic

                              Comment

                              • paralay
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Aug 2005
                                • 1411

                                The Su-35 for China, $ 4 billion, 48 fighters - $ 83.3 million apiece. In another contract - $ 62.5 million apiece.
                                Modernization of the Su-27 - Su-27SM - 198 million rubles. / $ 6.6 million

                                Comment

                                • Austin
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Oct 2003
                                  • 6480

                                  The price difference between RuAF and Export customers is likely due to addtional cost like Training , Spares , Support and Fat Profit that Sukhoi makes via exports

                                  Even in internal sale Sukhoi makes a profit of ~ 10 % is what i read. The mandate by Government is not to make profit over 15 % when selling to Russian Armed Forces
                                  "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                                  Comment

                                  • Lonevolk
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Aug 2005
                                    • 746

                                    no point in dwelling on supposed missed opportunities that ignore the realities of the time.
                                    Spot on.


                                    Originally posted by paralay View Post
                                    The Su-35 for China
                                    The Su-35 for China controversy isn't going away. There is a new report out about ongoing negotiations. Apparently a MOU has been signed and both sides are working on a firm contract. The number mentioned is at least 40 x Su-35's

                                    Comment

                                    • Rii
                                      Rii
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Oct 2010
                                      • 3449

                                      Well Li Na just beat Maria Sharapova to reach final of Australian Open, now China can buy Su-35 without loss of face.

                                      Comment

                                      • mack8
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Nov 2009
                                        • 2114

                                        5 Su-34 to be delivered to Voronezh on the 25th (tomorrow):
                                        http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2013/01/24/247722.html

                                        PS: Any news of when the Su-35S's from KnAAPO will be transferred to Akhtubinsk? ( i suspect those that are already there -3 or 4?- count against the 6)
                                        Last edited by mack8; 24th January 2013, 15:45.
                                        --------------
                                        NO to NATO
                                        NO to WAR!

                                        Comment

                                        • Trident
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • May 2004
                                          • 3965

                                          Originally posted by TR1 View Post
                                          Who was going to pay for it 10 years ago?

                                          It is like some of you guys live in utter denial of the economic situation and the armed force funding at the time.
                                          The same resources which ensured that the Su-34 was able to survive that era maybe? Also, no need to stubbornly cling to an order that far back - the same logic works equally well (earlier and cheaper aircraft for the VVS) with delivery 5 years ago.

                                          Originally posted by TR1 View Post
                                          Anyways even if Su-30 was ordered in bulk, NAPO would still have to be re-tooled for its production (or Su-35s), as Irkut was busy with export orders at the time (as well as for reasons of giving NAPO work and ensuring its existance).
                                          Not sure - other than India numbers ordered weren't that high, and needless to say HAL got its own final assembly line eventually. That they still prefer to place at least part of their orders with Irkut is of course because Indian production turned out to be more expensive than anticipated, but if a large-scale VVS order had materialised, that would have been their problem.

                                          Originally posted by TR1 View Post
                                          I, for one, am enjoying good numbers of Flankers being delivered to the RuAF; no point in dwelling on supposed missed opportunities that ignore the realities of the time.
                                          Me too - I'd almost be sorry to see the Hellducks go if it wasn't for that obnoxious paint scheme
                                          sigpic

                                          Comment

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