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    I wonder why the empty weight of F-20 Tigershark is under 5.5 tons but its same class aircrafts produced much latter such as Jas-39A, F-CK1 Chingkuo, FA-50 Golden Eagle and Tejas MK1 have empty weight arround 6.5 tons.

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      Weeelll . . . they're all bigger. Bigger wing area, fatter bodies (more room for stuff inside), etc. One of the ways in which this shows is that they can carry bigger radar antennae.
      Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
      Justinian

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        They are not really like that. For examble Jas-39A internal fuel is around 2.25 tons, the same with F-20 while it has bigger delta wings. Radar of F-CK-1 is APG-67 that was developed for F-20 before. If F-20 removed the guns in nose to else where, it is easy to install the big radar like Jas-39.

        They all also have not had the interrnal jammer so can not both Jas-39A and F-CK-1 body are fatter than F-20 one.

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          http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/1...-wins-air.html

          Localised El-2052 confirmed for Tejas and Jaguar. Massive win for the Israelis. The SoP-18 agreement has been made between HAL-ADA and the airforce for Tejas deliveries beyond 2018.
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            It says the decision was taken in 2012!

            Also the M2k will probably have a radar swap in the future! After the evening lullaby what a Wakeup call...

            And what a revenge for the Jaguar. Pushed aside to let the big industries have a free ride on public budgets and now among those spearheading the A2G arena*

            *written with a big sense of drama
            Last edited by TomcatViP; 26th October 2015, 16:20.

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              So the Tejas Mk-1A itself will feature the further developed Elta 2052 radar variant..Now if they only adhere to the timelines!

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                Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                It says the decision was taken in 2012!
                No, it says the Israelis offered it in 2012. It doesn't say when the decision was taken. Considering how long some military procurement decisions take, especially in India, there could have been a long delay between offer & acceptance.

                One odd & rather comical thing: he keeps referring to 'manual' radars, as if the pilot moves them around by hand. Some big mistakes, too, such as this -
                The Israeli Air Force operates US-built F-15 and F-16 fighters, which come fitted with US-designed AESA radar.
                Nope. All Israel's F-15s & F-16s have mechanically steered radars. The last Israeli F-15 was delivered before there were any AESA-equipped F-15s, & 11 years before the first export of an AESA-equipped F-15. Most Israeii F-16s were also delivered before there were any AESA-equipped F-16s, & even the newest (the F-16I Soufa) has a mechanically steered APG-68(v)9 radar.

                So far, the only AESA-equipped F-16s in service anywhere are the F-16E/Fs of the UAEAF, & the only country outside the USA to have AESA-equipped F-15s in service is Singapore (though other countries have placed orders for new F-15s or upgrades to their current F-15s or F-16s with AESA radars).

                All this is public information, & I'd expect anyone writing about it to take care to keep himself informed.
                Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                Justinian

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                  Correct regarding the timeline as it was worded. But with the recent rumor around Pak being offered new F16 (with aesa), isn't it more probable that something untill now covert get to see the light of a newsflash?
                  I have a hard time imagining them working in parallel on two different radar integration. Remember that they are working on both the radar and the ECM suite...

                  Correct also regarding the "manual steering" (has an engineer I had a burst of fun trying to visualize a crank handle, a pulley etc coming out of the dashboard ...). But the news is significantly striking to understand that someone being not a specialist would have it first on hands.
                  Last edited by TomcatViP; 26th October 2015, 20:42.

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                    Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                    Correct regarding the timeline as it was worded. But with the recent rumor around Pak being offered new F16 (with aesa), isn't it more probable that something untill now covert get to see the light of a newsflash?
                    I agree, that's possible. But we don't know it. We don't know it isn't true, either.
                    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                    Justinian

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                      Absolutely.

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                        Well now the L-273 Uttam AESA will have to find a different program to latch on to.
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                          http://www.business-standard.com/art...2701594_1.html
                          The second order that was supposed to happen on FOC has been replaced by SoP-18 build. Major difference between earlier decided FOC build and SoP-18 build is:-
                          - El/M-2052 integration.
                          - DC MAWS (not covered in the article)
                          - Multi rack support with SPJ mounted.

                          Also the article screws up fuel capacity. Mentions 2400 liters instead of 2600 kilos.

                          Other features that need to be demonstrated include:
                          - Turn around time between sorties reduced to 14 minutes instead of current 20 for refuelling, rearming and check ups.
                          - IFR (already installed on LSP-8)
                          - Pressurised refuelling (already fitted on to LSP-8). Refuelling internal tank takes 4 minutes, external tanks 2.
                          - Improvements on maintainability, some 27 modifications are required.

                          Production targets:
                          2015-16 : 4 Nos.
                          2016-17 : 7 Nos.
                          2017-18 : 8 Nos.
                          2018-19 onwards : 16 Nos.
                          (The build time is around 30 months)
                          The funds to raise production capacity shall be borne 50:50 by HAL and the forces.

                          On Mk2
                          IAF unsure, Navy all aboard.
                          Last edited by Twinblade; 28th October 2015, 03:08.
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                            The IN has no choice but to back the LCA Mk2, since they are not satisfied with the F-404 engine's thrust..and eventually, if the Tejas Mk1A enters service more or less on time, the user experience will mean that they will back the Tejas Mk2 variant as well. One of the key issues with the Tejas has been that the IAF hasn't yet gotten its hands on the fighter to be able to fully explore its capabilities.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by BlackArcher View Post
                              The IN has no choice but to back the LCA Mk2, since they are not satisfied with the F-404 engine's thrust..and eventually, if the Tejas Mk1A enters service more or less on time, the user experience will mean that they will back the Tejas Mk2 variant as well. One of the key issues with the Tejas has been that the IAF hasn't yet gotten its hands on the fighter to be able to fully explore its capabilities.
                              Something tells me that as the Jags start retiring, the IAF will look to getting an IAF variant of the MK2 with enhanced range, payload in as well.

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                                Given the new timelines and changes to the aircraft which would need some testing etc, can we expect the first operational LCA squadron before end of this decade?

                                The number of variants and timelines for each are mind boggling.

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                                  The Indian government will increase orders for its homegrown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), called Tejas, from 20 to 120, but Air Force officials question the plane's capabilities, and the scheduled arrival of a more advanced model remains murky.

                                  However, Indian Air Force officials said the move to increase reliance on the Tejas, delayed by more than 15 years, would severely compromise India's combat worthiness because this would lead to total dependence on state owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), which the officials said has a poor record of delivery and quality.
                                  http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...ties/75645752/

                                  Some rather damning comments about HAL in the article.
                                  Sum ergo cogito

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                                    Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
                                    http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...ties/75645752/

                                    Some rather damning comments about HAL in the article.
                                    Which is funny, as one could make some fairly damning comments about the Indian Air Force based upon the very comments supplied in the article:

                                    But an Air Force official said the decision to boost the order for LCA-Mark 1s was forced on them by the government to support its policy of "Make in India" defense projects [...] HAL not only has a poor record or delivering on time, but produces inferior products, the Air Force official said.
                                    Of course these are only a single person's comments, but they do seem representative of the IAF's broader attitude, and that attitude has more than a little to do with the current state of affairs.
                                    Last edited by Rii; 13th November 2015, 16:28.

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                                      Retired Air Marshal Subhash Bhojwani said that while the AESA radar and air-to-air refueling capability would compensate for most of the LCA's operational deficiencies, "with regard to day-to-day line maintenance I understand Tejas is still an engineer's nightmare.

                                      "I have yet to see any HAL aircraft where the canopy of one aircraft fits another without a lot of adjustments, the same for any other airframe component. Each aircraft seems to be ever so slightly different; this is a major shortcoming. US- and French-origin aircraft are designed from drawing board onwards to be easy to repair and parts are freely swappable. If HAL has made Tejas more maintenance-friendly than its predecessor products, then my stated opinion would need to undergo modification," Bhojwani said.
                                      Does this variation from specification happen with other manufacturers with decent QA and QC?
                                      Sum ergo cogito

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                                        Its always useful to look at the antecedents of the sources and the actual details. Bhojwani is a retired gent who reveres the Mirage 2000 in Indian service, nothing comes close. Not for him the early Russian MiGs with their not so sophisticated fit and finish and rough and ready design which he attributes to HAL. His last article was a hosanna to the Mirage 2000 and saying the Su-30Ks weren't as good.

                                        In the article, he even admits he doesnt know about the LCA yet the author included his comments with the usual rubbish ( If HAL has made Tejas more maintenance-friendly than its predecessor products,then my stated opinion would need to undergo modification," Bhojwani said. ). LCAs predecessor products from HAL? MiG-21, 27 and Jaguar. Jaguar production QA/QC was enough to ship spares to Oman and also build wings for the Do-228. MiG-21, 27 were from a far different era and the tooling and production quality likewise. They were never meant to emulate the Mirage 2000. Worth noting though the rough and ready MiGs did more than their share in war in the plains.

                                        All that stuff about line engineers etc is similar speculation based on the TDs which were reengineered for the SP. The LCA is probably the most automated aircraft in terms of BITE in the IAF.

                                        Comment


                                          Current maintability of the LCA is available via this article. In short, IAF (as expected) wants more to comply with its procedures, SOPs and some improvements. But the present FOC standard LCA is no slouch either.

                                          http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/search...&max-results=7

                                          For the IAF, which must mount multiple missions everyday with each Tejas fighter, easy maintainability and low turn-around-time are key attributes. The HAL chief says the IAF wants the fighter to take maximum 14 minutes between landing after a mission; and taking off for the next mission, fully checked, rearmed and refuelled. Currently, the Tejas takes about 20 minutes.

                                          The IAF has carried out a maintainability evaluation on the Tejas, and provided requests for action (RFAs) to HAL. Each RFA deals with a particular way to improve maintenance. We will be making 27 modifications in the fighter, says Raju.

                                          The Tejas already has built-in-test-equipment (BITE), which is a software programme that automatically checks the functionality of every crucial system. In case an aircraft system is not working optimally, the BITE flashes a warning light.

                                          On the other hand, if no warning lights are evident, maintenance engineers know that all systems are working satisfactorily. The need to check each one manually is no longer there.

                                          This also involves fitting pressure refuelling of the kind that exists in Formula One racing cars, which requires fuel to be pumped under pressure into the fuel tanks. Refuelling the Tejas takes just four minutes, and two more to fill drop tanks as well.

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