Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Tejas Mk1 and Mk2 thread

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 5 (0 members and 5 guests)
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • halloweene
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2012
    • 4000

    Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post

    112 more Rafales? Why so many? When could delivery start? And at what cost?
    another 36 in fly away condition i guess, that's 2-3 years before indian production takes the relay.And it will be a learning curve. First ones entirely off the shelf, than nitroducing more and more indian components etc. Did you know DRAL is already making parts for Falcon 2000? Why so many? Maybe because they are pleased with testing first "BR" standard?

    PS : just an educated guess.

    Comment

    • vikasrehman
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Apr 2004
      • 1639

      I rarely get involved in such discussions now, but occasionally an interesting topic comes up. Regarding double standards, unfortunately we are all guilty of it, yet we choose to forget, or our memories are rather selective, possibly out of our desire to be popular. A couple of examples:

      If I remember correctly, both JF17 and LCA were envisaged as +9/-3G fighters. IAF enthusiasts had an absolute field day when we learnt JF17 was limited to +8G. No argument of the opposite side was acceptable. Of course we learnt the same about LCA in time to come, and it was quite funny to see how the same arguments and counter arguments were used, but by the opposite sides now.

      When PLAAF hierarchy announced J20 had entered operational service, of course IAF enthusiasts wanted solid proof, knowing fully well, details would not be provided. Yet the same people believe the words of one of their own without question when it comes to MKI detecting J20 from several kilometres.

      PAF enthusiasts still cite 1965 air war as proof of its superior training, conveniently forgetting that was 50 years ago.

      I can go on, but I suppose I have made my point (at least to those who are willing to understand). I do not know if it is blind patriotism or the desire to be popular or may be the desire to hide an irrational fear of the opposite side, but what saddens me the most is the fact when common misconception go unchallenged even by very knowledgeable people on their 'national' fora. It is almost like people having split personalities, one for their national fora and one for such as this one.

      As for the development of LCA and other fighters, well it was individual AFs choice. PAF was hard pressed to replace their oldest machines, and they decided to put JF17 into active service at an early stage (USAF put the like of F16 into service or even sold it before FOC). IAF, on the contrary, had ample choice, and decided to wait for a more mature product before operationalizing LCA. There is nothing really wrong with either model, and I am quite certain, if the sides were switched, LCA would have followed JF17 route and vice versa. My personal opinion is that LCA would have been a better fighter today, had it followed JF17 route, but who am I to criticise IAF choice in this virtual world. Still I can say this on an international forum. Imagine the storm it would cause if I said this in an IAF forum, and the deafening silence of the 'experts'.

      As for the replacement of those old Mig 21 squadrons, instead of accusing each other of fake news and so on, it would suffice that today's or tomorrow's IAF is in a much better shape than it was 10 years ago, even if those Bisons were not replaced with anything. Just look at the sheer number of MKIs, the roles they could be employed in, incoming Rafale with Meteor, and so on.
      Last edited by vikasrehman; 10th February 2019, 00:05.
      Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes

      Comment

      • Blitzo
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2011
        • 1317

        Very reasonable post by vikasrehman, and I fully agree regarding the need for having clear eyes for all defence watching regardless one's area of primary focus

        Comment

        • rkumar
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2013
          • 372

          It might be more interesting to discuss, if someone request for basic info or best search on the topic.

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

          Like I said, it is not the best in the world but its good for us.

          - There are 25-30 fighters in the air include 12 with Air Force.
          - Tejas secured IOC-1 and IOC before Being inducted in the Air Force in 2015-16
          - Waiting for official FOC - thats means ready to participate in event war. lets wait for Aero India 2019. At the end, we know work is in progress, we will get there - It doesnt matter if its in 6 months or a year.

          Comment

          • Mags76
            Rank 1 Registered User
            • Jan 2019
            • 46

            vikasrehman Well said. I have not been on the forum long enough to know of the double standards but going back over this thread (started in 2012!), you can see how offended some of the current posters got when one questioned Tejas timelines and then those very suggestions coming true. Some posters on here we CONVINCED others were wrong and they were right, yet history proving them otherwise. Very revealing....

            Comment

            • Mags76
              Rank 1 Registered User
              • Jan 2019
              • 46

              Originally posted by rkumar View Post
              It might be more interesting to discuss, if someone request for basic info or best search on the topic.

              https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

              Like I said, it is not the best in the world but its good for us.

              - There are 25-30 fighters in the air include 12 with Air Force.
              - Tejas secured IOC-1 and IOC before Being inducted in the Air Force in 2015-16
              - Waiting for official FOC - thats means ready to participate in event war. lets wait for Aero India 2019. At the end, we know work is in progress, we will get there - It doesnt matter if its in 6 months or a year.
              ????????????

              The very link you posts lists only 17 planes. 9 of these prototypes, some of which may no longer be flying.

              Comment

              • Mags76
                Rank 1 Registered User
                • Jan 2019
                • 46

                Originally posted by BlackArcher View Post

                Deino, I don't really look much into PLAAF operations nor do I comment on it. But I can comment on the IAF and what is the status of a squadron of the IAF, since I read a lot about it and discuss it with others who know as much. Not this forum, since most people who post here don't really know much about the IAF and yet offer advice at the drop of a hat.

                You're obviously taken offense at some comments made on the PLAAF by God knows whom, and you've decided to come and take out that anger on this thread.

                As for "double standards"..point out which Indian poster who commented on the Tejas squadron being operational mentioned anything about some J-20 unit somewhere. Or else apologize for making baseless claims.

                Listen- the IAF's first Tejas squadron was stood up in July 2016 and since then it has slowly built up. 2.5 years since it was first formed, they now have over 15 pilots, and over 100 other ranks in the squadron. But as you said, they do have a secondary role, where they are also forming the core of the next squadron which will be brought back from being number-plated (most likely No.18 'Flying Bullets' squadron, a decorated squadron of the IAF) in 2019. Standard Operating Procedures are being set up, tactics are being established and in general the work up activities towards bringing the Tejas into wide-spread service are being done. But the No.45 Squadron is not an Operational Conversion Unit (OCU) - it is an operational squadron under the Southern Air Command.

                They have participated in Ex Gagan Shakti in 2018, which was a massive IAF exercise that involved all IAF operational fighter, helicopter and transport types. And they achieved the best range accuracy scores in air to ground strike - as per a serving Air Marshal. A new Tejas squadron, with a new jet, beat established Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000, Jaguar and MiG-21 squadrons. As people who have visited IAF Sulur mention, the rate of sortie generation by the squadron is quite hectic, as more and more pilots are being trained and being made day and night fully operational on the Tejas.

                In an attempt to prove others wrong you contridict yourself several times here.

                45 sqd "is not an operational conversion unit" according to you, but later state "more and more pilots are being trained". By what unit?

                With just 12 planes (and assuming not all available) you seem to imply it is an operational squadron, a training unit and of course still developing tactics (as you state) all with just 12 planes.....

                The IAF currently face a shortage of pilots yet you state more and more pilots are being trained for Tejas. Where exactly are these pilots then going? Considering there are no other Tejas units yet? Are they then losing currency on the type after being trained or do the magic 12 planes then jump into form an imaginary air wing for them?

                Comment

                • Mags76
                  Rank 1 Registered User
                  • Jan 2019
                  • 46

                  OK, so the below is a week old and comes straight from the ACM of the IAF, hoping he will not be called bias or accused of "having a gala day".
                  Fighting abilities affected: IAF chief on forces long association with HAL


                  The Indian Air Forces efforts to support the state-owned aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has affected its fighting capabilities, Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa said on Friday.

                  IAF has only cooperated with HAL; as a service; we have made concessions for HAL, but will the enemy make any concession for us when we face them in battle? he questioned.

                  The air chief was delivering the 10th Jumbo Majumdar International Conference at the Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS) in New Delhi and was responding to criticism about the IAFs alleged dislike for Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, the indigenous fighter made by HAL.

                  IAF has not shifted any goal posts as alleged, ACM Dhanoa said countering allegations that developments of the Tejas fighter suffered because the IAF changed specifications and requirements frequently. On the contrary, the IAF chief said, We have maintained the Air Staff Quality Requirements (ASQR or specifications) of the first 20 LCA Mk-I at standards issued in 1985. And even then HAL has been able to manufacture only 10 fighters, he added.

                  A HAL spokesperson declined comment on the air chiefs comments which come at a time when the state-owned aircraft maker is in financial distress of some sort and also when it is in the middle of the controversy surrounding the governments Rafale fighter deal.

                  A HAL official who spoke on condition of anonymity asked: Doesnt IAF allow concessions and modifications to foreign vendors? Concessions are also given to Defence Research Development Organisation and the Aeronautical Development Agency. Why is HAL being singled out?

                  Putting HAL on the mat, ACMl Dhanoa said upgrading of one squadron of Jaguar deep strike bombers, nearly two squadrons of Su-30MKi, Indias mainstay fighters, and one squadron of Mirage-2000, a multi-role fighter , all work being done by the state-owned firm, was far behind schedule. Additional production of Su-30 is delayed by over two years and LCA production commitment (has been delayed) by over six years, he added.

                  In addition, the air chief said in its quest for indigenisation, IAF has lost as many as 17 personnel including test pilots and engineers in air accidents. These accidents happened when testing and evaluation of the indigenous platforms such as Marut fighters and Kiran trainers.

                  The National Democratic Alliances deal to buy 36 Rafale fighters in a government to government deal from France has become controversial. It replaces a deal by the previous government to buy 126 aircraft of which 108 were to be assembled in India by HAL. The government has said the old deal wasnt viable. The opposition Congress and others have claimed the new deal is costlier than the old one, that due process wasnt followed, and that the new deal was done to benefit Reliance Defence, an offset partner of Rafale maker Dassault. Reliance, Dassault and the government have denied this. The government has also said the prices are not comparable because the new deal also includes India-specific customisation and weapons. The Supreme Court recently said it believes due process was followed in the deal and that it wouldnt go into the pricing of the deal, effectively giving the government a clean chit.

                  However, the controversy continues to rage on. In the course of this, HALs ability to manufacture aircraft has also been called into question.

                  The IAF chief also said that the force cant cut down either expenditure or its workforce anymore. The entire salary bill of the IAF is Rs.16621 crores, while our capital expenditure is Rs 35407 crores. We need Rs 8870 crores for fuel and maintenance. He added: There is no way we can cut our manpower to pay for our capital acquisitions.

                  Explaining the high cost of operations, the IAF chief explained: Manning of a Su-30 squadron is nearly twice that of a MiG-21 squadron and the cost of per hour operation is 3.5 times higher.

                  https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...WuLGOwq1N.html


                  Comment

                  • TomcatViP
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Nov 2011
                    • 5759

                    No one is gonna tune done the cost of operation by buying an expensive jet like the Rafale. You are mixing a lot of different factors to paint something that suits your personal opinion. HAL is a blooming national Industry that has many irons in the oven. Some not really design success for sure.
                    However what is one of the leading success story of HAL is the Teja despite the cumbersome path that both HAL and the IAF had to follow to reach that level of expertise. The most important thing for the Indian Industry is now to reach the next level: having an operational bird of their own lineage to hard assess all the upstream processes and TRICKY methodologies that led them there.

                    DRAL as we know today and can foresee for tomorrow, on the contrary, is just a sub-contractor assembling part of a foreign design (even if the assembly line is transplanted, it would still be an assembly line*..). Even if the opportunities to learn from the make in India are real (and non-negligible), It would be foolish to take one for the other. Apple, Banana.

                    No TEJA no AMCA. And invariably no real future for the Indian fighter jet industry. That is as simple as this. (Then they can cancel the AMCA after flight testing the prototype but they would already have build industrial expertise with fighter jets, something that they have yet to reach). )



                    And by the way, what is the relevance of Marut pilot deaths here? Do we have to account for pilots that died flying Ouragans and Super Mystres to assess the level of expertise of Dassault today?! Do you really know when the Marut was retired from service?


                    *The approach from Boeing was far more ambitious with leading edge formation and research center included in their offer to work on the AMCA. LM proposal on the other way, nearly guarantees an easy to reach return of investment with the mass-effect of the F-16 huge in service fleet that would have to be sustained. So if someone follows your argument (discard Teja for Rafale), Dassault offers would be logically in its form today the least lucrative of the 3!.If you preach with such fanatism, at least do it for your own church!!!
                    Last edited by TomcatViP; 10th February 2019, 20:15.

                    Comment

                    • Scooter
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 11831

                      Originally posted by rkumar View Post
                      I completely agree with observers, it is a great plane for IAF but might not be for outsiders. We don't care what someone else thinks about this program. If we are burning money then it's ours, thank you for your concern but no thank you.

                      We have been through these topics in past, every time there is a challenging topic - people jump Tejas is a bad project. The plane is good but the program is bad. How I bad program can create a good product? People working on the project must have done something good to reach this state. Unfortunately, some want to see and highlight only negative side - failures are the path to success.

                      Tejas is glorious and will be in IAF service in good numbers!!
                      It has little to do with what "outsiders" may or may not think. While, having everything to do with direct threats to India from China and a lessor extent Pakistan. Which, in the coming decades "will" include large numbers of 5th Generation Stealth Fighters. Which, likely will come from both the PLAAF and PAF. This means it's very possible that the Indian Air Force could face large numbers of Stealth Fighters on two fronts! This while they have nothing to counter it with.....

                      Sorry, but those "glorious" LCA (Tejas) will be nothing but fodder and will be crush with ease. Yet, you keep living in your dream world. As I have no doubt that your Tejas has both Lasers and Proton Torpedoes to win the day...
                      F-35 Lightning II

                      Comment

                      • Scooter
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jan 2000
                        • 11831

                        The UK has offered India the option to join the Tempest Fighter Program. This could be a good long term option.
                        F-35 Lightning II

                        Comment

                        • Scooter
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 11831

                          Originally posted by vikasrehman View Post
                          I rarely get involved in such discussions now, but occasionally an interesting topic comes up. Regarding double standards, unfortunately we are all guilty of it, yet we choose to forget, or our memories are rather selective, possibly out of our desire to be popular. A couple of examples:

                          If I remember correctly, both JF17 and LCA were envisaged as +9/-3G fighters. IAF enthusiasts had an absolute field day when we learnt JF17 was limited to +8G. No argument of the opposite side was acceptable. Of course we learnt the same about LCA in time to come, and it was quite funny to see how the same arguments and counter arguments were used, but by the opposite sides now.

                          When PLAAF hierarchy announced J20 had entered operational service, of course IAF enthusiasts wanted solid proof, knowing fully well, details would not be provided. Yet the same people believe the words of one of their own without question when it comes to MKI detecting J20 from several kilometres.

                          PAF enthusiasts still cite 1965 air war as proof of its superior training, conveniently forgetting that was 50 years ago.

                          I can go on, but I suppose I have made my point (at least to those who are willing to understand). I do not know if it is blind patriotism or the desire to be popular or may be the desire to hide an irrational fear of the opposite side, but what saddens me the most is the fact when common misconception go unchallenged even by very knowledgeable people on their 'national' fora. It is almost like people having split personalities, one for their national fora and one for such as this one.

                          As for the development of LCA and other fighters, well it was individual AFs choice. PAF was hard pressed to replace their oldest machines, and they decided to put JF17 into active service at an early stage (USAF put the like of F16 into service or even sold it before FOC). IAF, on the contrary, had ample choice, and decided to wait for a more mature product before operationalizing LCA. There is nothing really wrong with either model, and I am quite certain, if the sides were switched, LCA would have followed JF17 route and vice versa. My personal opinion is that LCA would have been a better fighter today, had it followed JF17 route, but who am I to criticise IAF choice in this virtual world. Still I can say this on an international forum. Imagine the storm it would cause if I said this in an IAF forum, and the deafening silence of the 'experts'.

                          As for the replacement of those old Mig 21 squadrons, instead of accusing each other of fake news and so on, it would suffice that today's or tomorrow's IAF is in a much better shape than it was 10 years ago, even if those Bisons were not replaced with anything. Just look at the sheer number of MKIs, the roles they could be employed in, incoming Rafale with Meteor, and so on.

                          The core of the problem for India. Is they have no real "Coherent Plan" to counter the Chinese and Pakistani Air Forces post 2030! Honestly, in my opinion they need to develop a New "Comprehensive Strategy" in order to turn things around. With outside help if necessary........(something has to change)
                          F-35 Lightning II

                          Comment

                          • Arihant
                            Rank 4 Registered User
                            • Apr 2017
                            • 440

                            This is a cross sectional diagram of Tejas mk2 front fuselage section from HAL jig assembly design tender. The last date for submission of bids is 2nd March.

                            So the rumors regarding mk2 that we have heard so far are true. Tejas mk2 is going to have close coupled canards. Whether they are movable like those on the MKI and Rafale or fixed like the IAI kfircanards isn't yet known.

                            Tejas mk2 is going to be an almost new aircraft with substantial design changes to the three fuselage sections and the wings. Mk2 will have a Mtow of 17-18 tons and will be labeled as the MCA.

                            And to cap it all the tender says please plan to support 24 assemblies/year, so even if series production starts in 2026, then starting from that year we will have 24 brand new aircrafts coming in every year.
                            Jigs to be operational in 240 days.....


                            Front section-

                            http://hal-india.co.in/Common/Upload...1_RFI%20FF.pdf

                            Have a look at page 3.



                            Mid section-

                            http://hal-india.co.in/Common/Upload...1_RFI%20CF.pdf

                            Page 6 says there will be fuel in the spine.


                            Rear section-

                            http://hal-india.co.in/Common/Upload...1_RFI%20RF.pdf

                            Length of the fuselage is 6100 + 4500 +3300 mm=13900 mm=13.9 metres which is around
                            0.7 m longer than mk1
                            Last edited by Arihant; 11th February 2019, 15:07.

                            Comment

                            • halloweene
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2012
                              • 4000

                              Originally posted by Scooter View Post
                              The UK has offered India the option to join the Tempest Fighter Program. This could be a good long term option.
                              dassault is already well installed into their amca program

                              Comment

                              • TomcatViP
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Nov 2011
                                • 5759

                                Arihant : Thank you for the docs.

                                On page 7 of 19865 doc, it is mentioned "Canard Hinge". So it's a moveable canard, close coupled with a reduced surface area wing (or the stretch of the fuselage is not applied to the wing).

                                Also, not to be pedantic, notice that the Saab Gripen has a moveable canard. It's the Viggen that had a fixed one (with flap).
                                Last edited by TomcatViP; 11th February 2019, 15:05.

                                Comment

                                • Arihant
                                  Rank 4 Registered User
                                  • Apr 2017
                                  • 440

                                  Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                                  Arihant : Thank you for the docs.

                                  On page 7 of 19865 doc, it is mentioned "Canard Hinge". So it's a moveable canard, close coupled with a reduced surface area wing (or the stretch of the fuselage is not applied to the wing).

                                  Also, not to be pedantic, notice that the Saab Gripen has a moveable canard. It's the Viggen that had a fixed one (with flap).

                                  Yes. My bad. Have corrected it.

                                  Thanks for the canard hinge observation. If HAL gets its act together and is able to build the mk2 within the first half of 2020 so that the mk2 can have its first flight in the first half of 21
                                  ,then it is going to be freaking awesome.

                                  Comment

                                  • BlackArcher
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Dec 2010
                                    • 3883

                                    There you go. Tejas Mk2 with movable canards.

                                    The Avionics Cover will likely be a continuation of the perspex canopy. I don't see the canopy ending right where that Avionics Cover comes in. I remember some posters here were saying that this configuration (which I had posted a CFD image of last year) was not possible at all, since the pilot won't be able to get inside or the wing placement below it will impede the canard's movement. Seems like that may not be the case. Clearly, ADA and HAL know better than some random internet posters looking at an image.

                                    Last edited by BlackArcher; 11th February 2019, 17:59.

                                    Comment

                                    • BlackArcher
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Dec 2010
                                      • 3883

                                      Tejas fighters from No.45 'Flying Daggers' Squadron will be participating in Exercise Vayu Shakti 2019.

                                      From IAF PRO's Twitter link

                                      #Vayushakti2019: The HAL built Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, is a light weight multirole fighter developed indigenously. It integrates technologies such as relaxed static stability, fly-by-wire flight control system, advanced avionics, multi-mode radar & modern weapons.
                                      Twitter link



                                      Will be using R-73 CCM, Griffin LGB and 1000 lb dumb bombs.

                                      Comment

                                      • BlackArcher
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Dec 2010
                                        • 3883

                                        From Livefist Twitter link





                                        12 Series Production fighters delivered to the IAF. 16 shall be delivered by March 2019 (of which 2, i.e. SP-13 and SP-14 have flown already). SP-15 and 16 should have their first flights soon.

                                        Production being scaled up to 16 fighters per year, from the current 8. Obviously the production line scales up and doesn't overnight start producing 16. But HAL will meet the 8 a/c per year goal for 2018-19 when it delivers SP-15 and SP-16 by this March. So they are on target.

                                        Comment

                                        • BlackArcher
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Dec 2010
                                          • 3883

                                          And from the HAL RFI tender, we get to know what is the production rate being planned for the Tejas Mk2. 24 Tejas Mk2 fighters per year.

                                          3.1 The Intended purpose of the Main & sub- modular assembly jig:
                                          The main Front Fuselage assembly jig along with sub-assembly jigs by adopting jig-less approach is intended to be used to build the Front Fuselage component assembly of the Fixed Wing Fighter Aircraft and able to deliver 24 sets of assemblies/year as per production standard.

                                          Comment

                                          Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                          Collapse

                                           

                                          Working...
                                          X