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WORLD AIR FORCE ROUNDELS

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  • PEB75
    Rank 4 Registered User
    • Jun 2018
    • 114

    Hello,

    Some sources state that the early (1913-1915) Romanian roundel was this one:

    Click image for larger version

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    I have never seen photographic evidence of this roundel, did you?

    Comment

    • Gerard
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Aug 2009
      • 3126


      Same here PEB. I will post it on facebook too.

      Attached Files
      Last edited by Gerard; 5th July 2019, 13:09.
      For Roundels of the World: http://www.drareg.nl/Markeringen/index.html or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/481843655359127/

      Comment

      • Gerard
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Aug 2009
        • 3126

        edit: i stumbled over an Romanian website with these pictures.
        For Roundels of the World: http://www.drareg.nl/Markeringen/index.html or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/481843655359127/

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        • PEB75
          Rank 4 Registered User
          • Jun 2018
          • 114

          Thanks! I have looked for such a Romanian site but without success, can you provide the link please?

          Comment

          • Gerard
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Aug 2009
            • 3126

            https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205321226

            https://www.graphicfront.ro/ro-arh-a...1#linkimg-3786

            Maybe these sites. (I answered you PM but somehow that is gone. I really don't understand this site ever since that update.)
            For Roundels of the World: http://www.drareg.nl/Markeringen/index.html or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/481843655359127/

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            • PEB75
              Rank 4 Registered User
              • Jun 2018
              • 114

              Thank you very much Gerard, tremendous stuff as usual!!

              As for the PM/notification/Email management system of the forum... it is a pain since I started trying to register...

              Comment

              • Gerard
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Aug 2009
                • 3126

                I found 2 more , PEB.
                Attached Files
                For Roundels of the World: http://www.drareg.nl/Markeringen/index.html or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/481843655359127/

                Comment

                • PEB75
                  Rank 4 Registered User
                  • Jun 2018
                  • 114

                  Thanks to your links I found those two, too!

                  By the way, I'm wondering: what model is the two-seater biplane with the with square and black 3?

                  Jusdging from the motor, I'd go for a German or Austrian design.

                  Any clue?

                  PEB

                  Comment

                  • Gerard
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 3126

                    I have absolutely no clue about those old planes. lol. I posted this in my facebook group for an answer. I'll be back!

                    edit: Brequet XIV. (most likely)
                    Last edited by Gerard; 8th July 2019, 12:12.
                    For Roundels of the World: http://www.drareg.nl/Markeringen/index.html or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/481843655359127/

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                    • PEB75
                      Rank 4 Registered User
                      • Jun 2018
                      • 114

                      Yes, it is a Breguet XIV for sure.

                      Which, by the way is interesting. According to Cochrane's, the red-blue-yellow Romanian roundel has not been used after 1915. As a matter of fact, Breguet XIV appeared only in 1917 (and the IWM picture of a Farman you posted previously is also dated 1917). Either, once again, B&W photographs are misleading, or Cochrane's is wrong on this one: in the latter case, the red-blue-yellow roundel has been used in Romania until after the end of the war

                      Comment

                      • Gerard
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 3126

                        good point. I think that Cochrane made a mistake. But maybe Greg can help us. I think he has some connection with him.
                        For Roundels of the World: http://www.drareg.nl/Markeringen/index.html or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/481843655359127/

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                        • cthornburg
                          Skyvan Capt.
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 678

                          you might contact Denes Bernard. I can't find his website right now but have his email.

                          Chris

                          Comment

                          • XB-70
                            Rank 4 Registered User
                            • May 2018
                            • 316

                            Are you guys certain that those old B&W photos represent the Romanian roundel? They didn't look right to me so I took the color image at the top of the page and used a couple of online converters to get a grayscale image.

                            https://onlinejpgtools.com/convert-jpg-to-grayscale
                            https://onlinepngtools.com/convert-png-to-grayscale

                            In both cases, it ended up looking like this:

                            Click image for larger version

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                            I'm thinking the middle band should be the darkest in any old photos of that Romanian roundel. Or, it could be a curious case of modern digital conversions not behaving like old photography.

                            Comment

                            • Gerard
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 3126

                              You know the colors of the RAF roundel? Look at this picture. The red is as dark as the yellow ring and P The bleu is lighter than red.
                              Click image for larger version  Name:	15_Hawker_Tornado_HG641_(15833937541).jpg Views:	0 Size:	220.3 KB ID:	3867368

                              But other film emulsions may give a different outcome.

                              Click image for larger version

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                              You can not use modern day software to reproduce these.
                              Last edited by Gerard; 9th July 2019, 07:27. Reason: added more
                              For Roundels of the World: http://www.drareg.nl/Markeringen/index.html or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/481843655359127/

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                              • PEB75
                                Rank 4 Registered User
                                • Jun 2018
                                • 114

                                The argument is nonetheless valid: on the Spitfire, yellow is as dark as red, so in the Breguet IIV case yellow might the middle or outer ring...

                                On the other hand, In the post WW1 Romanian roundel, the center dot is supposed to be blue (with red on the outer ring). On the Breguet XIV, it doesn't look like the center dot can be blue, as it looks like the same color as the wing...

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                                • Gerard
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Aug 2009
                                  • 3126

                                  The 3 variations of the French navy roundel. 1930 / 1960's / present day
                                  Attached Files
                                  For Roundels of the World: http://www.drareg.nl/Markeringen/index.html or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/481843655359127/

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                                  • PEB75
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • Jun 2018
                                    • 114

                                    Two more variants:


                                    Martin Maryland from Vichy Aronavale:
                                    Click image for larger version

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                                    And Sikorsky hlicopter during Algerian War:
                                    Click image for larger version

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                                    Comment

                                    • Gerard
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Aug 2009
                                      • 3126

                                      the one on the Maryland is the 1960's version. Came with and without yellow outer ring. Used in Indochina, Algeria and in France. The shape of the anchors may vary a little but the main difference to the other version is that the anchor was not over the red ring.

                                      As you mentioned the crossed anchors were used in Algeria. Not really navy but more Marine Commando.
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                                      For Roundels of the World: http://www.drareg.nl/Markeringen/index.html or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/481843655359127/

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                                      • PEB75
                                        Rank 4 Registered User
                                        • Jun 2018
                                        • 114

                                        I have to disagree here, Gerard

                                        The Maryland roundel is definitively a Vichy Navy marking, in the 1941-43 era. The German occupation authorities imposed specific markings to the Vichy aircraft: long, white bands on each side of the fuselage roundel, and red/yellow stripes on tail and/or motors cowlings. These were intended to enhance visibility and to decrease the value of camouflage, making them more vulnerable! You can see the stripes on the tail of the Maryland, as well as on the motor cowlings.

                                        I shall add that, until the end of World War 2, most French Navy aircraft didn't wear the anchor, only the standard tricolor roundel. I don't know yet why some aircraft didi indeed wear the anchor, they were the exception and not the rule!

                                        One final detail: Marine commandos didn't have aircraft or helicopters attached. So, whereas they were used to transport Marine commandos (among other troops), both helicopters technically belong to the Navy, as indicated by the "F" for "Flottille" (flottilla).

                                        Comment

                                        • Gerard
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Aug 2009
                                          • 3126

                                          Thank you for your explanation. It makes sense, and I will add that info to the website when updating France. Do you have more of those Vichy pictures?


                                          https://forum.keypublishing.com/foru...42#post3416142
                                          Last edited by Gerard; 14th July 2019, 10:14.
                                          For Roundels of the World: http://www.drareg.nl/Markeringen/index.html or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/481843655359127/

                                          Comment

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