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Quadbike Indian Air Force Thread Part 18

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    Originally posted by quadbike View Post
    I know there are rules, in govt-govt deals these can be broken and should be if we need to speed things up. If we are fine with importing stuff all the time then let it be like it is, follow the rules, procedures, and deliver the product when it will be considered obsolete.
    wow..rules are there to be broken in the Govt. ?! Which world do you live in ? its the exact opposite, where people don't have the right or the motivation to break rules which could backfire and lead to a big scandal later on.

    CEMILAC is a certifying authority, which in every country is always owned by the Govt.. They will not clear the certification unless they are happy with the methods adopted for analysis and with the testing done for the parts. This BS about them being a govt. organization and hence turning a blind eye is so ignorant that the very fact that you're suggesting it exposes your real world experience and knowledge.

    Suggesting that its just a military airplane and that a pilot can eject and hence you should rush first flight is so immature as to show everyone out here just how much your opinion matters.

    SAAB can just build one just like that, their experience is immense compared to ADA/HAL, if they get project sanction and funding now, I am willing to bet the Sea Gripen will overtake the N LCA programme, despite the headstart NLCA has.
    Yes, of course they can build one "just like that" because they'll be immune to any engineering issues (because you believe so). The only issue of course is to find someone who can believe them enough as to bankroll them.
    "By the whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch!"

    Comment


      Yes, of course they can build one "just like that" because they'll be immune to any engineering issues (because you believe so). The only issue of course is to find someone who can believe them enough as to bankroll them.
      Experience and Expertise counts, Indian engineers have a long way to go till they reach the level of the SAAB,Dassault,Boeing,EADS guys so for them at this point it would be rather easy. They have a much better product in the Gripen to begin with.

      Not going to argue on the other subject you want to play by the rules, fine take it slow and easy and NLCA will soon be not needed by the Navy.
      Love Planes, Live Planes

      Comment


        Originally posted by quadbike View Post
        Experience and Expertise counts, Indian engineers have a long way to go till they reach the level of the SAAB,Dassault,Boeing,EADS guys so for them at this point it would be rather easy. They have a much better product in the Gripen to begin with.

        Not going to argue on the other subject you want to play by the rules, fine take it slow and easy and NLCA will soon be not needed by the Navy.
        And if we take the advice of those who believe what you do, then Indian engineers will never be able to reach that level. It is precisely this narrow minded thinking that IAF and GoI displayed in the 1970s and early 80s that led to all the Marut experience going nowhere. And the result was that all the expertise had to be built from scratch when the LCA program was started.

        Its not me who wants to play by the rules- it is the way things work in aviation. Unless you want another Saras like crash that sets the program back by another 3-4 years while a probe looks into what went wrong and then CEMILAC says "hey we told you so". I'm sure if you lost a loved one in such a crash that could be attributed to ignoring safety rules, you'd say never mind they didn't play by the rules, but not everyone is as nice as you.
        "By the whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch!"

        Comment


          Indian engineers will reach that level, but only if they start from the bottom, when you learn something you learn it step by step, look at the complexity of the LCA, India's second fighter project compared to the Chinese ones or the Russian ones when they started off, they aimed at achieving something they can, rather than trying to build the best fighter in its class. If you bite more than what you can chew, you will end up with exactly the position where the LCA is, too far down the line to drop the project, yet too many problems to have it operational. I am sure if we went for something less complex, say without the complicated FBW, Western derived engine, the delta, the use of composites etc, we would have had an operational fighter many years ago, and from then on we could have already been developing the AMCA, a more sophisticated platform. It is not easy to skip generations and somethings are only learnt from experience.

          I agree that the IAF is partly to blame, pampered as it is with the best of what Russia & the West have to offer, they are shortsighted and think that HAL would one day be able to Magically produce the fighter of their dreams. I am sure there are murky secrets to why that choice being made by the IAF, we just don't know that yet.

          As for the Saras, the difference is that it is essentially a transport/passenger plane the risks are higher, there is no ejection mechanism etc.

          May be they should just concentrate on meeting IAF requirements with the MK 1 and making the MK 2 a reality rather than spending time and resources on building what will be a very limited Naval fighter. Especially at a time when the Navy's commitment to the platform is wavering.

          India's carriers have limited deck space and unlike the IAF they cannot afford to have a fighter which is less effective when they can get something more effective.
          Love Planes, Live Planes

          Comment


            IAF to convert Kargil Airport into air base

            Jammu: The Jammu and Kashmir government on Monday said the IAF is planning to convert Kargil airport into a full-fledged air force base in the state.

            "Indian Air Force is planning to convert Kargil airport into a full-fledged air force base in Jammu and Kashmir," state Finance Minister Abdul Rahim Rather told the legislative Assembly in reply to a query of PDP member Peerzada Mansoor Hussain.

            Rather, who presented the budget in the Assembly today, said, "Kargil airport is to be extended by 1,500 feet. The work is being assigned to the Defence Ministry."

            The development work of the Kargil Air Force base will commence once the land issuance is settled, he said, adding that a high-level team from the central government is expected to visit Kargil shortly to draw a road map for resolution of all connected issues.
            sigpic

            Comment


              Originally posted by quadbike View Post
              Indian engineers will reach that level, but only if they start from the bottom, when you learn something you learn it step by step, look at the complexity of the LCA, India's second fighter project compared to the Chinese ones or the Russian ones when they started off, they aimed at achieving something they can, rather than trying to build the best fighter in its class. If you bite more than what you can chew, you will end up with exactly the position where the LCA is, too far down the line to drop the project, yet too many problems to have it operational. I am sure if we went for something less complex, say without the complicated FBW, Western derived engine, the delta, the use of composites etc, we would have had an operational fighter many years ago, and from then on we could have already been developing the AMCA, a more sophisticated platform. It is not easy to skip generations and somethings are only learnt from experience.
              When you state that, how on earth can you justify the LCA being dropped and a Gripen being acquired instead? India will forever be importing fighters from other nations if that were to happen.

              As for the rest of the stuff you wrote on the LCA, its all in the past and there have been a lot of discussions on that. At the moment, the IAF has a stated intent of purchasing 6 LCA squadrons. the IN has committed money to prototypes and has now ordered 9 N-LCAs. These are committed funds, which indicate a firm backing for it. There is neither interest nor intent to acquire the Gripen or Sea Gripen since at the very best, it offers a bit more than the Mk2 will, whereas it will cost more and will give India's aerospace industry precious little when we already have an MRCA.

              And as we've seen in the Swiss evaluation, the Gripen NG isn't as hot as it's made out to be on these forums. Its good for its size, but its not that good that we ought to dump our own program to go for it. The IN will have the option of the Rafale and will guaranteed find it better than any paper Sea Gripen that they will need to fund. Even if we are to assume that the Sea Gripen program was problem-free and that it were as capable as the Rafale (which is not going to happen since its smaller and Saab has precious little experience building a naval fighter), the IN can simply have HAL build Rafale M's..a far far less riskier approach than funding a Sea Gripen that no one else has ordered or will operate.

              As for the Saras, the difference is that it is essentially a transport/passenger plane the risks are higher, there is no ejection mechanism etc.
              So you believe that an ejection seat means that you can take any risk despite knowing that a certifying agency will not approve of it. I give up. Believe what you want. It wont change the facts I'm afraid.

              May be they should just concentrate on meeting IAF requirements with the MK 1 and making the MK 2 a reality rather than spending time and resources on building what will be a very limited Naval fighter. Especially at a time when the Navy's commitment to the platform is wavering.
              yes, it is wavering..which is why just a fortnight ago, they committed funds to order 9 N-LCAs.

              India's carriers have limited deck space and unlike the IAF they cannot afford to have a fighter which is less effective when they can get something more effective.
              the Sea Gripen won't be any more effective than a N-LCA. Nothing on it makes it more effective. If the IN wants a more effective fighter than the MiG-29K then they have the Rafale M to look at. Bring the avionics on board to the F3+ level and the IN doesn't need to bother about any paper designs
              "By the whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch!"

              Comment


                Tata-Augustawestland Rotorcraft production facility at Hyderabad is expected to commence production of produce the 8-seat AW119Ke light helicopter in mid 2013.

                http://www.agustawestland.com/news/i...lity-hyderabad
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                Comment


                  quad, how about you get physics to suspend its laws for a few hours and I promise I will get CEMILAC to do the same.
                  HAL - one step ahead of IBM

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Kramer View Post
                    And as we've seen in the Swiss evaluation, the Gripen NG isn't as hot as it's made out to be on these forums.
                    All the Swiss evaluation leaks referred to the Gripen C/D, not the NG. The leaked extracts were from the original evaluation, when there was no NG prototype to evaluate.

                    Quadbike's right about the faults of the LCA programme, though wrong, I think, about the solution. As you obviously realise, Indian military aircraft development has been badly managed. Too ambitious too quickly, too little account taken of politics of potential foreign partners, & an appalling lack of continuity. It should have started with licence-building, then progressed through incorporating more Indian-made parts, to local modifications, then indigenous design of a new type using imported critical components such as engines . . . you get the picture.

                    The Gnat/Ajeet & Jaguar programmes have both gone the right way, but it should have begun earlier, been part of a general trend, & been carried on. The experience gained on Ajeet should have been put into a new type, less ambitious than LCA, which could have been in service 20 years ago, to be followed by something like Tejas.

                    This process should ideally have started a decade before Gnat, perhaps with Vampire. Marut was the wrong way. But that said, throwing away the experience gained on it was criminal.

                    Thinking of what might have been makes me feel a bit sad.
                    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                    Justinian

                    Comment


                      http://www.defpro.com/news/details/3...336d4bd3171537

                      ^ From this link:-

                      IAF wants to Induct six squadrons of Tejas by the end of 13th plan. (i.e. 2022)
                      Last edited by Twinblade; 15th March 2012, 14:44.
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                      Comment


                        http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...medium=twitter


                        India's Ministry of Defence says the Italian authorities are not conducting a probe into a 2010 deal for 12 AgustaWestland A101 helicopters fitted for the VIP transport role.

                        In a letter to India's parliament, minister of defence AK Antony said the ministry merely asked the Indian embassy in Rome to provide a report into Italian investigations into alleged questionable dealings at AgustaWestland's parent company, Finmeccanica.

                        "The Ministry of Defence asked for a report into the matter from the Indian Embassy in Rome," says Antony. " The report received indicates that Italian magistrates/prosecutors are conducting a preliminary investigation into allegations of financial malpractices occurring within Finmeccanica, Italy, and its subsidiaries in general and there is no specific probe being conducted about India-related transactions."
                        Phew... at least some deals are getting through without hiccups.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                          [QUOTE]
                          Originally posted by Kramer View Post
                          When you state that, how on earth can you justify the LCA being dropped and a Gripen being acquired instead? India will forever be importing fighters from other nations if that were to happen.
                          I never wanted LCA to be dropped for the Air Force for the Gripen or anything, I just wanted the Gripen to be the MRCA, that is it. I was always in support of the LCA, and argued with the likes of Teer that the IAF should place more orders of LCA MK1 rather than shifting the goalposts all the time.

                          As for the rest of the stuff you wrote on the LCA, its all in the past and there have been a lot of discussions on that. At the moment, the IAF has a stated intent of purchasing 6 LCA squadrons. the IN has committed money to prototypes and has now ordered 9 N-LCAs. These are committed funds, which indicate a firm backing for it. There is neither interest nor intent to acquire the Gripen or Sea Gripen since at the very best, it offers a bit more than the Mk2 will, whereas it will cost more and will give India's aerospace industry precious little when we already have an MRCA.
                          Again I want this to happen as much as you do, the problem here is the slow pace at which LCA MK1 FOC is going, look how long it took for the LSP-7 to take to the skies, then they have to redesign the whole thing for the MK2 why not stop being too ambitious drop the NLCA and concentrate on the MK-2. The IN was committed because Navy unlike AF appreciates the value of indigenous development and has always been willing to take an indigenous product which is 80% the capability of a foreign one. But they are running out of patience as per the CNS they feel let down by the ADA.

                          And as we've seen in the Swiss evaluation, the Gripen NG isn't as hot as it's made out to be on these forums. Its good for its size, but its not that good that we ought to dump our own program to go for it. The IN will have the option of the Rafale and will guaranteed find it better than any paper Sea Gripen that they will need to fund. Even if we are to assume that the Sea Gripen program was problem-free and that it were as capable as the Rafale (which is not going to happen since its smaller and Saab has precious little experience building a naval fighter), the IN can simply have HAL build Rafale M's..a far far less riskier approach than funding a Sea Gripen that no one else has ordered or will operate.
                          As swerve said the Swiss evaluation was for the Gripen C/D & not the NG. We are not to dump our programme for the Sea Gripen we must dump it so that the rest of the programme most importantly the MK2 can move forward faster, this is the reason why there was talk about cutting the B version of the F 35. One thing the Sea Gripen will have over Rafale is lower operating costs, i.e provided the IN wants something with a similar operational footprint of the NLCA then Sea Gripen not the Rafale M is the obvious choice. As for SAAB's inexperience in sea based fighters, I am sure if they start it now they will finish it before the definitive NLCA takes to the skies (seas).


                          So you believe that an ejection seat means that you can take any risk despite knowing that a certifying agency will not approve of it. I give up. Believe what you want. It wont change the facts I'm afraid.
                          The Manufacturer believes there won't be any issues, so hopefully it won't come down to that.

                          yes, it is wavering..which is why just a fortnight ago, they committed funds to order 9 N-LCAs.
                          Yes 9 prototypes and thats all while the chief is saying he is disappointed.
                          the Sea Gripen won't be any more effective than a N-LCA. Nothing on it makes it more effective. If the IN wants a more effective fighter than the MiG-29K then they have the Rafale M to look at. Bring the avionics on board to the F3+ level and the IN doesn't need to bother about any paper designs
                          It may be on paper but given funding the Swedes can get it ready before we can get the NLCA ready.

                          Navy chief says ADA let it down on LCA front
                          Last edited by quadbike; 15th March 2012, 15:35.
                          Love Planes, Live Planes

                          Comment


                            There are some news around that the americans are threatening India with sanctions if they do not reduce (give up?) oil imports from Iran. That got me thinking immediately at things like F414 for Tejas Mk2, P-8, Hercules , Apache etc etc .(possibly even israeli sourced stuff like Derby , radars and other etc. )

                            Will we see a repeat of 1998? Poor Tejas will be finding itself in the same trouble, again , if any of this happens.
                            Last edited by mack8; 16th March 2012, 00:36.
                            --------------
                            NO to NATO
                            NO to WAR!

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by swerve View Post
                              All the Swiss evaluation leaks referred to the Gripen C/D, not the NG. The leaked extracts were from the original evaluation, when there was no NG prototype to evaluate.
                              I know that. They accounted for the MS-21 configuration and still it didn't meet all the Swiss requirements and stood below the Rafale and Typhoon. And anyway, the timeline for the Gripen NG being service ready is such that a Tejas Mk2 will be into more than detail design development by the time it will be ready. The Gripen C/D and NG is also a lot costlier than the Tejas Mk1 and 2 will be and will offer little gain in performance and a lot less in terms of experience for India.

                              Quadbike's right about the faults of the LCA programme, though wrong, I think, about the solution. As you obviously realise, Indian military aircraft development has been badly managed. Too ambitious too quickly, too little account taken of politics of potential foreign partners, & an appalling lack of continuity. It should have started with licence-building, then progressed through incorporating more Indian-made parts, to local modifications, then indigenous design of a new type using imported critical components such as engines . . . you get the picture.

                              The Gnat/Ajeet & Jaguar programmes have both gone the right way, but it should have begun earlier, been part of a general trend, & been carried on. The experience gained on Ajeet should have been put into a new type, less ambitious than LCA, which could have been in service 20 years ago, to be followed by something like Tejas.

                              This process should ideally have started a decade before Gnat, perhaps with Vampire. Marut was the wrong way. But that said, throwing away the experience gained on it was criminal.
                              All this has been discussed to death on this forum on earlier IAF threads and there is little to discuss now about what could've been. However, not taking the LCA to its fruition will be a disaster for Indian aerospace since it will essentially replicate what happened earlier after the Marut. I don't necessarily agree with what you say here about the Marut being the wrong way since the follow-on HF-71 was a promising design as was the Marut itself which was never exploited to its fullest potential by the IAF and retired prematurely. And India had been licence manufacturing MiG-21s well before the Jaguar, so that was not an issue.

                              Thinking of what might have been makes me feel a bit sad.
                              It does make a lot of us feel sad, but India just has to bite the bullet and develop the LCA to its fullest potential in order to not have such a situation repeat itself.
                              "By the whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch!"

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by mack8 View Post
                                There are some news around that the americans are threatening India with sanctions if they do not reduce (give up?) oil imports from Iran. That got me thinking immediately at things like F414 for Tejas Mk2, P-8, Hercules , Apache etc etc .(possibly even israeli sourced stuff like Derby , radars and other etc. )

                                Will we see a repeat of 1998? Poor Tejas will be finding itself in the same trouble, again , if any of this happens.
                                No because India will just give up on Iran faster than you think.

                                Sadly.
                                Love Planes, Live Planes

                                Comment


                                  More pics of LSP-7 at its first flight















                                  "By the whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch!"

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by mack8 View Post
                                    There are some news around that the americans are threatening India with sanctions if they do not reduce (give up?) oil imports from Iran. That got me thinking immediately at things like F414 for Tejas Mk2, P-8, Hercules , Apache etc etc .(possibly even israeli sourced stuff like Derby , radars and other etc. )

                                    Will we see a repeat of 1998? Poor Tejas will be finding itself in the same trouble, again , if any of this happens.
                                    Not the same kind of "sanctions" as 74 and 98. With turkish bank now pulling off Indians will be using Russian firms for Irani oil payments.
                                    sigpic

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Kramer View Post
                                      However, not taking the LCA to its fruition will be a disaster for Indian aerospace since it will essentially replicate what happened earlier after the Marut.
                                      Agreed
                                      Originally posted by Kramer View Post
                                      I don't necessarily agree with what you say here about the Marut being the wrong way since the follow-on HF-71 was a promising design as was the Marut itself which was never exploited to its fullest potential by the IAF and retired prematurely. And India had been licence manufacturing MiG-21s well before the Jaguar, so that was not an issue.
                                      And the Gnat before the MiG-21. I cited the Gnat/Ajeet & Jaguar as instances of successful indigenisation of both production & further development.

                                      I think Marut was a mistake not in the final objective, but the way in which it was to be achieved.

                                      Originally posted by Kramer View Post
                                      It does make a lot of us feel sad, but India just has to bite the bullet and develop the LCA to its fullest potential in order to not have such a situation repeat itself.
                                      Again, agreed.
                                      Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                                      Justinian

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by mack8 View Post
                                        There are some news around that the americans are threatening India with sanctions if they do not reduce (give up?) oil imports from Iran. That got me thinking immediately at things like F414 for Tejas Mk2, P-8, Hercules , Apache etc etc .(possibly even israeli sourced stuff like Derby , radars and other etc. )

                                        Will we see a repeat of 1998? Poor Tejas will be finding itself in the same trouble, again , if any of this happens.
                                        I don't think US is ready to sacrifice anything because of India's problems with Pakistan. e.g military aid to Pak etc., Why should India suffer because US has problems with Iran? We don't have anybody that will fill the role that Iran has as a supplier of Oil. End of story. IMHO India will keep on dealing with Iran, with whoever is there in power in Iran whether it is current or future mullahs or some future US puppet and/or democratic regime.

                                        On another note, US sanctions on India? That will certainly open the eyes of some in India. See we are sleepy people of short memory, we need somebody to slap us from time to time to keep us awake and active. You are right poor little Tejas will suffer again, but who told HAL/ADA to go for F414. First you gift your b@ll$ on a platter to Mr. X', then if Mr. X' squeezes them, you cry foul.

                                        No offense to anybody.
                                        Last edited by Corrosion; 16th March 2012, 17:19.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by quadbike View Post
                                          No because India will just give up on Iran faster than you think.

                                          Sadly.
                                          Not so fast Sir. First you have to find alternative Energy supply.

                                          Comment


                                           

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