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  • mack8
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Nov 2009
    • 2114

    Originally posted by flateric View Post
    seems that the same MiG guys have reached Mr.Rogozin recently
    there was also PAK FA alternative developed at Sukhoi in 2005 that was thrown off in favor of Davidenko's T-50
    in summer of 2010 its author together with 'alternative T-50 mafia' have tried to push it again through Zhirinovsky that reportedly had forwarded their letter to Medvedev
    they blamed existing T-50 as big mistake having structural problems due to rear weapons bay placement and downgraded specifications compared to Raptor and alternative PAK FA
    last project, they say, has 'right aerodynamics' and abilities compared to Boeing's NGAD/F-X
    Hmm, i was thinking ...would this "alternative" to Davidenko's T-50 be the project with Raptor style bays ( ie two side, one centre)?
    http://paralay.com/pakfa/t50%20%2871%29.JPG
    --------------
    NO to NATO
    NO to WAR!

    Comment

    • flateric
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jun 2006
      • 700

      Originally posted by mack8 View Post
      Hmm, i was thinking ...would this "alternative" to Davidenko's T-50 be the project with Raptor style bays ( ie two side, one centre)?
      http://paralay.com/pakfa/t50%20%2871%29.JPG
      hardly think so as Davidenko's project family shapes are readily seen here
      oppositioners were talking of 'aerodynamics better than that of T-50 and F-22' (I guess they were addressing novel aerodynamic shapes of Boeing-released early NGAD concept) and ability to carry even two Kh-55Ms(!) in weapon bays (no more, no less - 'and here we have PAK DA' was a citation) with unrefueled range of 5800 km (that was the moment when I started to rise eyebrows, previous time it was when I read that they tried to push project to POTR via Zhirinovsky - you hardly can find worse way to put credibility in your enterprise)
      I've asked some guys from industry about the case, but all I get are humble smiles
      Last edited by flateric; 16th February 2012, 23:14.
      http://www.secretprojects.co.uk

      Comment

      • flateric
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jun 2006
        • 700

        Originally posted by medal64 View Post
        And the only alternative T-50 is the Sukhoi engineer's independent 2005 proposal, is it right?
        how could you...MiG guys with their E-721 entry are grumpy now
        and please stop mixing LMFS projects and PAK FA ones
        Last edited by flateric; 16th February 2012, 23:35.
        http://www.secretprojects.co.uk

        Comment

        • flateric
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jun 2006
          • 700

          Originally posted by medal64 View Post
          And I wonder does all manufacturers has the heavy 5th gen. fighter concepts or someone develops the lightweight 5th gen fighter?
          PAK FA was intended to be somewhat in the middle of F-22A/F-35 class - cheaper, more affordable flying compromise- even with extreme STOL ability at the earliest stage (Yakovlev would be merging efforts with winning contender, , playing as sub-contractor, but stepped out of game in 2005 when overdue STOL requirements became less stringent with its expertise), that has grown closer to F-22 during design stage
          LMFS - lightweight single-(preferable design concept) or two engine fighter, Indian AMCA can be an example of such proposal
          both Sukhoi and MiG have plenty LMFS-class projects under the sleeve, but now LMFS is no more
          Last edited by flateric; 16th February 2012, 23:44.
          http://www.secretprojects.co.uk

          Comment

          • mack8
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Nov 2009
            • 2114

            Heh, even i heard of that Zhirinovsky bloke .
            Thanks for your insight from the inside, most interesting.
            Can i pull your tongue about that E-721 again ? Is it indeed like the description on paralay, an aircraft not unlike J-20 ( canards, side intakes etc etc )?
            --------------
            NO to NATO
            NO to WAR!

            Comment

            • mack8
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Nov 2009
              • 2114

              LMFS - lightweight single- or two engine fighter, Indian AMCA can be an example of such proposal
              Have you ever talked with anyone in the industry about what they think/ how they would feel about a possible russo-indian joint venture for AMCA? Ok it's not enough money for LMFS , but if indians put some (or majority), and russians find some aswell, wouldn't that be a very attractive complement for PAK-FA?
              --------------
              NO to NATO
              NO to WAR!

              Comment

              • J-20 Hotdog
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2008
                • 3476

                Originally posted by mack8 View Post
                Heh, even i heard of that Zhirinovsky bloke .
                Thanks for your insight from the inside, most interesting.
                Can i pull your tongue about that E-721 again ? Is it indeed like the description on paralay, an aircraft not unlike J-20 ( canards, side intakes etc etc )?
                isnt the 721 just a stealthified MiG 1.44?

                Comment

                • Wingex
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Nov 2011
                  • 31

                  Originally posted by flateric View Post
                  hardly think so as Davidenko's project family shapes are readily seen here
                  oppositioners were talking of 'aerodynamics better than that of T-50 and F-22' (I guess they were addressing novel aerodynamic shapes of Boeing-released early NGAD concept) and ability to carry even two Kh-55Ms(!) in weapon bays (no more, no less - 'and here we have PAK DA' was a citation) with unrefueled range of 5800 km (that was the moment when I started to rise eyebrows, previous time it was when I read that they tried to push project to POTR via Zhirinovsky - you hardly can find worse way to put credibility in your enterprise)
                  I've asked some guys from industry about the case, but all I get are humble smiles
                  WTF?! OMG?! :Eek: 2 kh-55 in weapons bays, and competitive with NGAD (next generation)... this proyect was the middle of T-50 and TU-160 class!
                  Why did not take the project?... I don't understand!!! :Confused:

                  *Do you think that "this proyect" could be the "russian NGAD"?
                  Last edited by Wingex; 17th February 2012, 04:33.

                  Comment

                  • Austin
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2003
                    • 6463

                    How can RuAF maintain a all twin engine fighter fleet and mostly top heavy fighter which will have significant impact on operational cost over period of 2-3 decades. A single engine fighter will lighten the burden

                    Does the non-commitment to Mig-35 indicate that LMFS or similar single engine fighter projects is under works ?
                    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                    Comment

                    • J-20 Hotdog
                      Senior Member
                      • Mar 2008
                      • 3476

                      Originally posted by Austin View Post
                      How can RuAF maintain a all twin engine fighter fleet and mostly top heavy fighter which will have significant impact on operational cost over period of 2-3 decades. A single engine fighter will lighten the burden

                      Does the non-commitment to Mig-35 indicate that LMFS or similar single engine fighter projects is under works ?
                      no problem.. they could license build an aircraft from their closest ally, Tejas with Kaveri engine!

                      Comment

                      • blackwood
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 308

                        If they do decide on another 5th generation plane, why not jump a generation and design a 5th plus generation plane, possibly, single engine, UCAV. Make it extremely stealthy, a first strike plane into heavily defended areas, with the Su34 then coming in finishing of the job. Seems to be a trend to go for.unmanned planes. There was a article i cant find now, quoting head of russian airforce saying the future was pak-fa with ucavs flying along side and being controlled from the pak-fa.o

                        Comment

                        • JSR
                          JSR
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Aug 2011
                          • 4947

                          Originally posted by Austin View Post
                          How can RuAF maintain a all twin engine fighter fleet and mostly top heavy fighter which will have significant impact on operational cost over period of 2-3 decades. A single engine fighter will lighten the burden

                          Does the non-commitment to Mig-35 indicate that LMFS or similar single engine fighter projects is under works ?
                          If you assume 1000 fighters *200hr per year*30 year life*$20k per hr. it comes to around $120Billion for 30 years. so at most $4b a year.

                          A single engine fighter will increase the burden not lighten the burden.
                          Single engine fighters have shorter range, less operational flexible payload, less sensor power, less TWR hence shortens the engine life . and it takes alot engineering resources to successfully developed it. I am not even going into more pilot training just because more fighters. Whether aircraft is single engine or twin engine. Pilot is the same.
                          .

                          Comment

                          • J-20 Hotdog
                            Senior Member
                            • Mar 2008
                            • 3476

                            Originally posted by blackwood View Post
                            If they do decide on another 5th generation plane, why not jump a generation and design a 5th plus generation plane, possibly, single engine, UCAV. Make it extremely stealthy, a first strike plane into heavily defended areas, with the Su34 then coming in finishing of the job. Seems to be a trend to go for.unmanned planes. There was a article i cant find now, quoting head of russian airforce saying the future was pak-fa with ucavs flying along side and being controlled from the pak-fa.o
                            you just described the Mig Scat!


                            look at them zig zags!

                            Comment

                            • flateric
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jun 2006
                              • 700

                              Sukhoi got money for heavy, X-47B class strike UCAV project
                              MiG is in limbo
                              http://www.secretprojects.co.uk

                              Comment

                              • flateric
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jun 2006
                                • 700

                                Originally posted by mack8 View Post
                                Can i pull your tongue about that E-721 again ? Is it indeed like the description on paralay, an aircraft not unlike J-20 ( canards, side intakes etc etc )?
                                all was said that E-721 was a 'development of 1.44/1.42 ideas'. after J-20 appeared, some ex-MiG workers said it looks in line of post 1.42 studies made by another new design team in early 00s (poor bird has changed two or three chief designers in her history)
                                http://www.secretprojects.co.uk

                                Comment

                                • blackwood
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Dec 2011
                                  • 308

                                  Fantastic to hear, that sukhoi has been given the job of a X-47B class of strike aircraft. With such a aircraft and Pak-fa this would be a good combination. Integrating the two into a complex battlefield would give more options. The future is unmanned for some operations, especially for countries that can secure their bases from attack where ucav are controlled from. Russia being such a large country could control such aircraft from thousands of kilometers away.

                                  Comment

                                  • Nopia
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Feb 2012
                                    • 122

                                    Originally posted by blackwood View Post
                                    Fantastic to hear, that sukhoi has been given the job of a X-47B class of strike aircraft.
                                    What experience does Sukhoi have with building UCAV's? Are there any in operation?

                                    Comment

                                    • mikoyan1991
                                      Shqiperia etnike
                                      • Sep 2011
                                      • 321

                                      flateric,what about the surprise u promised us
                                      LAND OF EAGLES

                                      Comment

                                      • flateric
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jun 2006
                                        • 700

                                        Originally posted by Nopia View Post
                                        What experience does Sukhoi have with building UCAV's? Are there any in operation?
                                        0/0
                                        there were many design studies though starting back in early 80s
                                        Last edited by flateric; 17th February 2012, 11:45.
                                        http://www.secretprojects.co.uk

                                        Comment

                                        • flateric
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jun 2006
                                          • 700

                                          Originally posted by mikoyan1991 View Post
                                          flateric,what about the surprise u promised us
                                          surprise should be surprise, otherwise it's not a surprise surprise
                                          http://www.secretprojects.co.uk

                                          Comment

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