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The AESA radar retrofit market

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  • djcross
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2000
    • 5467

    #21
    The cost of retrofit also depends upon the type of cooling available. Many modern AESAs require liquid cooling because forced air cooling cannot remove the heat fast enough to keep the tiles from overheating. Adding a liquid cooling loop to F-16 or a MiG would be another impact to complexity, weight, power and volume.

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    • Sign
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Oct 2008
      • 1579

      #22
      Originally posted by djcross View Post
      The cost of retrofit also depends upon the type of cooling available. Many modern AESAs require liquid cooling because forced air cooling cannot remove the heat fast enough to keep the tiles from overheating. Adding a liquid cooling loop to F-16 or a MiG would be another impact to complexity, weight, power and volume.
      The radar itself have normally a liquid coolingsystem but it needs the heat heatexchanged with a external system the external system can be ither "direct" air or liquid.

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      • swerve
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jun 2005
        • 13612

        #23
        Originally posted by SpudmanWP View Post
        SABR and RACR weigh LESS than the MSA in the F-16
        Yes. TRMs have got much smaller & lighter than in the very heavy 1st generation AESAs, there's no motor or gimbal, & the back end electronics are smaller & lighter.

        The days of AESA radars being heavy are in the past.
        Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
        Justinian

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        • SpudmanWP
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2009
          • 5293

          #24
          Watch this video on NG's SABR radar for the F-16. They show how the old LRUs are removed and which ones are put back in. It also covers how cooling is handled , eg. water is pumped through the AESA components and through the rear-mounted heat exchanger.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmrQR...eature=related
          "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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          • swerve
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jun 2005
            • 13612

            #25
            Perhaps it's time to revive this thread.

            I see that Raytheon is marketing a variant of RACR for the F-18D, so at least someone thinks there's a chance of AESA retrofits for some old Hornets. Is this realistic? Who might be in the market for such an upgrade?

            The progress of F-16 upgrade programmes is interesting. South Korea cancelled its RACR upgrade after the US government imposed massive extra costs on the programme for 'risk management', which Raytheon & BAE say are unnecessary. The USAF 'defunded' the SABR upgrade for its F-16s, leaving Taiwan out on a limb as its programme was sharing fixed costs with the USAF. But Taiwan is still going ahead.

            What does the collective wisdom of this site think is going to happen with RACR & SABR/APG-83? Will Korea switch to a commercial contract rather than FMS? Or switch to SABR? What about other countries looking for F-16 upgrades, such as Singapore?

            What of other radars meant for upgrades? For example, Selex has been working on an AESA upgrade for Grifo, the Grifo-E. What market might there be for it?
            Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
            Justinian

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            • bring_it_on
              2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
              • Jun 2004
              • 12480

              #26
              Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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              • Mountain
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2014
                • 766

                #27
                J-10B apparently has a AESA on it

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                • Tonnyc
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Dec 2013
                  • 102

                  #28
                  Originally posted by Mountain View Post
                  J-10B apparently has a AESA on it
                  That's not exactly what this thread has in mind. We are talking about retrofitting AESA radar into older model aircraft. J-10B is a new model aircraft. It's the same reason why we are not talking about the AESA radar in the F-16 block 60 in this thread. Now, if you are saying that the J-10B AESA radar can be put into the J-7, or at least that the J-10B AESA radar has been retrofitted into J-10A, then that would be relevant for this thread.

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                  • Mountain
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2014
                    • 766

                    #29
                    Originally posted by Tonnyc View Post
                    That's not exactly what this thread has in mind. We are talking about retrofitting AESA radar into older model aircraft. J-10B is a new model aircraft. It's the same reason why we are not talking about the AESA radar in the F-16 block 60 in this thread. Now, if you are saying that the J-10B AESA radar can be put into the J-7, or at least that the J-10B AESA radar has been retrofitted into J-10A, then that would be relevant for this thread.
                    Easy tiger, the orginal J10B did not have an AESA in it, so I was assuming it was retrofitted, but you carry on being pedantic and telling me what YOU want to see in this thread.....

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                    • maurobaggio
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jul 2008
                      • 521

                      #30
                      Originally posted by Mountain View Post
                      Easy tiger, the orginal J10B did not have an AESA in it, so I was assuming it was retrofitted, but you carry on being pedantic and telling me what YOU want to see in this thread.....
                      Indeed this behavior has been getting more and more common here in this Forum, and I can assure it will become much worse in the near future.

                      Still if someone has been trying to tell you what you can talk or not, the good news are that this Forum its really democratic, of course as in all democracies there are rules to avoid anarchy, because if they does not exist as the moderators this Forum would turn in hell.

                      In my opinion the information are always a good thing, even if it could be out of the thread it would not be remarkable problem, which in fact was not the case from J 10 with AESA radar.

                      By the away what has been made me curious about this issue is if China has been planned to upgrade both the J 8 II and Su 27SK/ UBK with AESA radars just like as J 10C/D

                      After all both fighters J 8II and Su 27 has been already in service for some time and an upgrading program could have been prepared for those fighters in China.

                      At least an AESA radar from China for the Su 27SK / UBK could be placed in the international market for Su 27/30 which indeed would be something to consider.
                      Last edited by maurobaggio; 8th January 2015, 00:22.

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                      • BlackArcher
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 4374

                        #31
                        The MiG-29 may not see any AESA retrofits since most MiG-29s are on the way out or being operated by nations that won't be able to afford the scale of an SMT type upgrade with new development and integration costs for the Phazotron AESA that was demonstrated on the MiG-35 demonstrator.

                        the MiG-29K/KUBs of the IN and the RN will be the likeliest MiG-29 variant candidates when they're up for MLUs in the late 2020 timeframe.

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                        • TR1
                          TR1
                          http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                          • Oct 2010
                          • 9826

                          #32
                          Originally posted by BlackArcher View Post
                          The MiG-29 may not see any AESA retrofits since most MiG-29s are on the way out or being operated by nations that won't be able to afford the scale of an SMT type upgrade with new development and integration costs for the Phazotron AESA that was demonstrated on the MiG-35 demonstrator.

                          the MiG-29K/KUBs of the IN and the RN will be the likeliest MiG-29 variant candidates when they're up for MLUs in the late 2020 timeframe.
                          Yes I don't think we will be seeing AESA on anything but the 2nd gen MiG-29M airframe and its many offshoots, the only operators of those being the two navies you mentioned and Syria if that order is actually ever delivered. Though I guess if Iraq and Egypt really get the type they might seek a similar MLU....but that is just my conjecture.
                          sigpic

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                          • MadRat
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Aug 2006
                            • 5032

                            #33
                            Maritime aircraft are good candidates for AESA. It wouldn't have issues as fas as power generation and heat dissipation for most types. I also would think there would be a priority for spy planes using SLAR. Slant range is probably no issue for an aircraft like the U-2.
                            Go Huskers!

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                            • swerve
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jun 2005
                              • 13612

                              #34
                              Maritime aircraft are getting AESA radars, & have been for quite a long time. For example, the USCG started re-fitting is HC-130s with Selex Seaspray 7500E radars in 2008. The Ecuadorian navy has re-fitted its CN-235s with the Selex Seaspray 5000E. Seaspray has sold Seaspray 7000Es to the Italian navy for new ATR-72 MPAs, & the Vixen 500E has been operational on US Customs & Border Protection King Air 350s for a few years (retrofitted). Selex has sold Seaspray AESAs for fitting on helicopters & UAVs, & the very small PicoSAR AESA radar for small UAVs.

                              That's just some of the sales made by one firm. Others are also in the market, e.g. Thales with the Search Master range of airborne maritime AESAs.
                              Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                              Justinian

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                              • bring_it_on
                                2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                                • Jun 2004
                                • 12480

                                #35
                                Both the P8 and the triton have active sensors as well and I believe the JSTAR replacement program is currently studying options for adding a new active sensor to the j stars as well
                                Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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                                • swerve
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jun 2005
                                  • 13612

                                  #36
                                  Indeed. AESA radars now seem to be the norm for new MPAs (e.g. Kawasaki P-1), UAVs, & helicopters, but I started this thread hoping to discuss the retrofit market.

                                  Ah. I've just found that the Atlantique 2 upgrades includes the Thales Searchmaster. That's an AESA retrofit!
                                  Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                                  Justinian

                                  Comment

                                  • MadRat
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Aug 2006
                                    • 5032

                                    #37
                                    MPA airframes last 10X as much as fighters from their relative generation. With 50 year old airframes able to slugger on doing the same work for a fraction of new builds, it makes sense to go refits. I'm sure disappointed that P-3's are being moved to secondary users and the U.S. is building P-8's at a fraction of the replacements. Surely P-3's could operate without crews as autonomous platforms at the least.
                                    Go Huskers!

                                    Comment

                                    • Jō Asakura
                                      多聞天
                                      • Jan 2011
                                      • 1302

                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by bring_it_on View Post
                                      Both the P8 and the triton have active sensors as well and I believe the JSTAR replacement program is currently studying options for adding a new active sensor to the j stars as well
                                      I thought NG's active MESA on B737-700 airframes would replace J-STARS.
                                      sigpic

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                                      • bring_it_on
                                        2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                                        • Jun 2004
                                        • 12480

                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by Jō Asakura View Post
                                        I thought NG's active MESA on B737-700 airframes would replace J-STARS.
                                        Don't think that there is anything solid on that front but from hat I remember, they did continue to pour R&D money into the A2G sensor for the MP-RTIP and the Global Hawk's AN/ZPY-2 is a direct result of that funding. It would be logical for Northrop to offer a scaled up version of that sensor as i remember the goal for the MP-TRIP was to develop a scalable system. On the other side, Raytheon would no doubt show up with a solution based on their AAS which is currently undergoing testing on the P-8. From what I have read the activity is only beginning to happen in the FY 2015 budget and what they expect is a relatively low-cost solution that is based on a business jet (Boeing apparently would have the largest aircraft in the BBJ with Northrop Grumman proposing a G550 based sollution ). I am not aware of any plans to hold a separate selection for the sensor but from what I gather they want an integrated solution where the bidder proposes a platform and sensor mix. Given that time-frame they are looking at (2022 for initial capability) and the fact that the USAF does not want to have radical leaps in capability (they are happy with the JSTARS sensor performance) it would be logical for both Northrop Grumman and Raytheon to offer sensors that are already flying in some shape or form. I believe that Boeing would continue its partnership with Raytheon and propose a BBJ solution with a version of the AAS.

                                        http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread852847/pg
                                        http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...uires-mission/
                                        http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-planes-05156/


                                        Last edited by bring_it_on; 10th January 2015, 21:38.
                                        Old radar types never die; they just phased array

                                        Comment

                                        • bring_it_on
                                          2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                                          • Jun 2004
                                          • 12480

                                          #40
                                          Regarding the E-8 modernization or replacement. Perhaps Northrop Grumman would offer this as they did in the past.

                                          Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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