Bin Laden Raid: Stealth Helicopter Mods?

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14 years 7 months

Posts: 265

We're done here, gentlemen.

There is a thread on this subject running in the General Discussion forum.

We don't need one in here as well.

Regards

GA

I am not disputing the right of the monitors to monitor and take measures when needed but:

Closing a thread related to the Bin Laden raid in the "Modern Military Aviation" forum in favor of another similar thread in the "General Discussion Forum" dedicated to "non-aviation topics" seems a bit bizar to me. Is the Bin Laden raid a "non-aviation topic"?

Do you expect us to scan the complete forum for already existing similar threads before opening a new one? That's not very motivating to contribute I must say.

Original post

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 4,082

But maybe in discussing some strange details of the downed chopper, which doesn't fit to a regular MH-60K ! :confused:

Any idea ???? ... a Secet Chopper ... a special modification ???

Deino

Member for

15 years 1 month

Posts: 840

If they didn`t close down threads that are deemed in the wrong forum,
they basically couldn`t enforce their own rules at that point...

I WOULD have one recommendation: when locking a thread because there`s another more appropriate one, etc,
it would be MOST helpful for the Moderator to LINK to the appropriate thread (when it already exists, of course)
That is least disruptive to people who weren´t necessarily grossly breaking any guidelines, etc...

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 4,674

But maybe in discussing some strange details of the downed chopper, which doesn't fit to a regular MH-60K ! :confused:

Any idea ???? ... a Secet Chopper ... a special modification ???

Deino

Highly interesting!!

A H-60 LO modification I'd say.

Edit: Might be based on a S-92. Hmmm.

Member for

19 years 11 months

Posts: 10,160

I WOULD have one recommendation: when locking a thread because there`s another more appropriate one, etc,
it would be MOST helpful for the Moderator to LINK to the appropriate thread (when it already exists, of course)
That is least disruptive to people who weren´t necessarily grossly breaking any guidelines, etc...

That's what I usually do.

A fair point nevertheless, and I apologise for the omission this time.

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 4,619

Stealth copters

Check out the story about stealthy copters used in the raid ,on the ares blog. On the phone otherwise I would give you a link.

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13 years 11 months

Posts: 549

Here's the link;

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a275902dd-e7a2-40fd-ab78-d46e3bf922b1&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

Stealth Helos Used In Osama Raid
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 5/3/2011 11:14 AM CDT

Well, now we know why all of us had trouble ID'ing the helicopter that crashed, or was brought down, in the Osama raid.

It was a secretly developed stealth helicopter, probably a highly modified version of an H-60 Blackhawk. Photos published in the Daily Mail and on the Secret Projects board show that the helicopter's tail features stealth-configured shapes on the boom and tip fairings, swept stabilizers and a "dishpan" cover over a non-standard five-or-six-blade tail rotor. It has a silver-loaded infra-red suppression finish similar to that seen on some V-22s.

No wonder the team tried to destroy it. The photos show that they did a thorough job - except for the end of the tailboom, which ended up outside the compound wall. (It almost looks as if the helo's tail hit the wall on landing.)

Stealth helicopter technology in itself is not new and was applied extensively to the RAH-66 Comanche. Priorities are usually different versus fixed-wing aircraft. Reducing noise and making it less conspicuous is the first job (more main and tail blades reduce the classic whop-whop signature). Listen here.

Noise can also be reduced by aerodynamic modifications and flight control changes that make it possible to slow the rotor down, particularly in forward flight below maximum speed. Infra-red reduction measures are crucial -- the Comanche had an elaborate system of exhaust ducts and fresh-air mixers in its tailboom.

Radar cross-section reduction is also possible - you can't make a helo as radar-stealthy as a fixed-wing airplane, because of all its moving parts, but on the other hand it is generally operating at low altitude in ground clutter, and is not an easy target. Reducing RCS also makes jamming more effective, whether from the aircraft itself or from a standoff jammer.

The willingness to compromise this technology shows the importance of the mission in the eyes of US commanders -- and what we're seeing here also explains why Pakistani defenses didn't see the first wave (at least) coming in.

Update: Quellish at Secret Projects mentions an ancestor system.

Read the Aviation Week article: Bin Laden Raid May Have Exposed Stealth Helicopter.

That could explain why the wreckage was moved away in covered trucks. It may also explain how they evaded PAF air defence radars, although there still seems to be some confusion; it appears they refuelled at a PAF/Pak army base after entering from Afghanistan? How long before this ends up in the labs of SAC or CAC? ;)

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Looks like technology from the Comanche program lived on in other projects. Its a technology coup for Pakistan even if the airframe and avionics were destroyed. They might be seen it as reasonable compensation for the invasion of their airspace, I wonder if the Chinese will get a look in on the analysis.

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13 years 11 months

Posts: 549

Yeh...I was being rather tongue in cheek. There doesn't appear to be much useful wreckage left, the bulk of the fuselage and avionics were probaby destroyed by the SEALS, leaving insignificant sections of the tail. I doubt the Pakistanis have the technical ability to have made much use of it anyway. It'll probably end up in Chinese hands, but again, not sure how useful it would be to them.

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19 years 1 month

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Yeh...I was being rather tongue in cheek. There doesn't appear to be much useful wreckage left, the bulk of the fuselage and avionics were probaby destroyed by the SEALS, leaving insignificant sections of the tail. I doubt the Pakistanis have the technical ability to have made much use of it anyway. It'll probably end up in Chinese hands, but again, not sure how useful it would be to them.

I believe the most relevant aspect in this peculiar revelation is the confirmation to the Chinese and Russians that the US got enough benefit out of this effort in order to fund an "stealth" operational variant of the Blackhawk... This certainty alone might provoke them both into following suit down this particular route.

Comments?

Regards,

Hammer

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13 years 11 months

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Yes, it seems from a special operations point of view, that it would be useful to have a 'stealth' chopper. The question is whether both Russia and China feel the need to spend on the development of such a type. I think both may well see the benefit to justify such a programme.

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24 years 2 months

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Yes, it seems from a special operations point of view, that it would be useful to have a 'stealth' chopper. The question is whether both Russia and China feel the need to spend on the development of such a type. I think both may well see the benefit to justify such a programme.

The US is unique in having a unit like the 160th SOAR and that it's special forces are organized in a JSOC structure. Other countries don't really have a dedicated special operations air arm.

Typically they would just hand pick a few pilots and train for special missions as required. They have nothing like the hi-tech gizmos 160th SOAR had a decade ago. It seems rather unlikely they'll build a handful of stealthy helicopters just for special operations missions.

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Posts: 412

Yes, it seems from a special operations point of view, that it would be useful to have a 'stealth' chopper. The question is whether both Russia and China feel the need to spend on the development of such a type. I think both may well see the benefit to justify such a programme.

What sort of stealth would this helicopter have provided? Radar or Acoustic?

I doubt they would need a radar evading helicopter for missions in AF-Pak arena. It must be more of stealth in the visual /acoustic area.

Although having posted a comment on Pakdef forum that using a stealth helicopter proves that Pakistanis had no clue about the operation and the compound was an ex ISI safe house touched a raw nerve somewhere and I was banned within 10 minutes!

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Moderator Message

If no-one objects, I will rename this thread "Bin Laden Raid: Helicopter Stealth Mods?" in view of the interesting line of discussion that has developed.

If anyone feels a pressing need to carry on discussing the deletion of the original thread, please feel free to send me a PM.

Regards

GA

Member for

15 years 5 months

Posts: 412

Looking at the crashed helicopter we can the see the helicopter tail next to the compound wall, interesting thing to note is that the wall itself has not been damaged.

I am not familiar with the strength of the tail boom structure, but surely if the helicopter had crashed after hitting the wall there would be some damage to the wall?

Another thing to note is the complete destruction of the helicopter. We have seen Americans destroy critical equipment after their helicopters have gone down before, like Somalia. But the main airframe in those cases had survived.

I hope one day a video of the raid comes out like the mission in Somalia.

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18 years 3 months

Posts: 5,267

What sort of stealth would this helicopter have provided? Radar or Acoustic?

I doubt they would need a radar evading helicopter for missions in AF-Pak arena. It must be more of stealth in the visual /acoustic area.

Although having posted a comment on Pakdef forum that using a stealth helicopter proves that Pakistanis had no clue about the operation and the compound was an ex ISI safe house touched a raw nerve somewhere and I was banned within 10 minutes!

Well if the helicopter is levering Comanche program technology whatever crashed probably offers radar, acoustic and IR stealth. The question is whether this is a modified helicopter or something new designed from the ground up.

Hardly surprising that you would get a ban from Pakdef for suggesting ISI involvement, this is a highly sensitive issue for Pakistan.

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15 years 5 months

Posts: 412

Well if the helicopter is levering Comanche program technology whatever crashed probably offers radar, acoustic and IR stealth. The question is whether this is a modified helicopter or something new designed from the ground up.

Hardly surprising that you would get a ban from Pakdef for suggesting ISI involvement, this is a highly sensitive issue for Pakistan.

Sensitive or not, It's always sad when people start banning their own citizens for questioning the government. I only asked a question which appeared on some Middle Eastern papers today. Let them live in denial if they want to.

Also I saw an interview with a Pakistan Army helicopter pilot who graduated from the same military academy and have flow into that valley many times. He said that there is no way that a helicopter coming into that area would have been able to avoid detection. Now it turns out there is a way.

Is there any non radar based technology which could be used to detect low flying helicopters?

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interesting article linked on teh Ares page about how CIA experiments in Vietnam led to Helicopters that only became audible on flat open ground within a couple of hundred feet of an observer.

Acoustic suppression must be just as important for Helicopter Stealth as Radar. Anyone that has had a Chinook fly over head at varying heights can testify to the importance of acoustic signature to detection.

Now a stealthy Chinook would be impressive!

Member for

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Posts: 5,267

Sensitive or not, It's always sad when people start banning their own citizens for questioning the government. I only asked a question which appeared on some Middle Eastern papers today. Let them live in denial if they want to.

Alas that is a difficult situation to be in and you are right but what can you do?

On a side note I would recommend this book as a useful insight into Pakistan's current situation:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wcvd4Da0L.jpg

I happen to work for a subsidiary of the company that published this book, I read a proof copy just before it came out and has been a very useful insight into Pakistani politics and the current domestic situation as well as a good historical overview. You can find it on amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pakistan-Hard-Country-Anatol-Lieven/dp/1846141605

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Alas that is a difficult situation to be in and you are right but what can you do?[/url]

Atleast expose them for what they are!

The ADAD looks interesting. One would have thought this would be a standard fit for any strategic location, like the military academy. If it wasn't before, maybe now it will be.