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  • Sens
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2000
    • 12298

    Originally posted by Austin View Post
    I tried to put up some data on the 3 generations of engine within AL-31 family , the data on the new 117 ( sfc/service life etc) is not known

    AL-31FP ---> Su-30MKI ( 4 + ) link

    AL-31FP specifications:


    T/W ~ 8:1

    AL-31 ( 117C ) ---> Su-35S ( 4++ ) link

    AL-31(117S) specifications:

    Full afterburning thrust,kgf 14,000 Normal / 14,500 Combat mode
    Specific fuel consumption.min.kg/kgf.h 0.67
    Weight,kg 1520
    Length,m 4.99
    Inlet diameter,m ~ 0.93
    T/W ~ 9:1

    AL-31 ( 117 ) ---> PAK-FA( 5th Gen )link

    AL-31(117) specifications:

    Full afterburning thrust,kgf 15,000
    Specific fuel consumption.min.kg/kgf.h 0.67
    Weight,kg 1370 (1)
    Length,m 4.99
    Inlet diameter,m ~ 0.93
    T/W ~ 10:1
    The real data do differ from that.

    The installed engine ratio of the AL-31F is ~7:1
    The modifications of that did reach ~8:1
    The T-50 variant in development will reach ~9:1 and may reach ~10:1 in some years.
    All that for "peace-time" ratings.

    The sfc claim of 0.67 is the best value in max dry and does rise by lower power settings.

    To ease the temper about that, everyone can figure out the thrust to weight ratio of the present top-end GE fighter engine.

    http://www.geae.com/engines/military..._turbofan.html

    Below an equipped AL-31FN and F
    http://cnair.top81.cn/fighter/AL-31FN.jpg
    http://aviationfans.com/images/su27_6.jpg

    In the link you can read the claim of Victor CHEPKIN
    "As a result, the engine was born "117". Even a simple application of developments available an amazing result - the engine thrust increased from 12.5 tonnes to 15. Without adding a gram of weight, we increased the thrust by 20 percent!
    When Victor CHEPKIN tells the truth the true weight of the AL-31F and the 117C are the same!

    http://translate.google.com/translat...backlog_01.htm
    Last edited by Sens; 6th March 2010, 22:02.

    Comment

    • Fluke
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2010
      • 20

      Originally posted by dionis View Post
      How about the Su-27SM and Su-34 engine?!
      Su-27SM uses Salyut AL-31FM1
      http://www.salut.ru/Section.php?SectionId=4

      Full afterburning thrust 13500 kgf
      Specific fuel consumption 0.685 kg/kgf*h

      Weight 1520 kg
      Length 4.945 m
      Inlet diameter 0.924 m

      Not sure about su-34 but it can also be AL-31FM1

      Comment

      • Austin
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Oct 2003
        • 6471

        Originally posted by Sens View Post
        The real data do differ from that.
        May be but those data are from the manufacture and those are really as good as it gets.

        The installed engine ratio of the AL-31F is ~7:1
        The modifications of that did reach ~8:1
        The T-50 variant in development will reach ~9:1 and may reach ~10:1 in some years.
        All that for "peace-time" ratings.
        The AL-31FP certainly has a T/W ratio of 8:1 no doubt and the AL-31 ( 117C ) which as the interview says is a cheaper version of 117 certainly reaches a T/W ratio of 9:1 in peace time rating ( ~14 T ) and betters that in combat ( 14.5 T )

        117 which powers the PAK-FA is a new engine in development for the past 5 years and not all performance figures are reveled , the only known figures so far are weight reduction of ~ 150 kg over 117C and Thrust of ~ 15 T , they certainly have exploited their experience in developing AL-41F and have used hot parts in 117C and developed new technologies for 117

        At least from know figures reveled so far on 117 this new engine is comparable to EJ200 in T/W class.
        Last edited by Austin; 7th March 2010, 05:34.
        "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

        Comment

        • Fluke
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2010
          • 20

          Originally posted by Austin View Post
          the only known figures so far are weight reduction of ~ 150 kg over 117C and Thrust of ~ 15 T
          http://translate.google.com/translat...m_ostatke.html

          Yes, is seems that 150 kg reduction confirmed personally by Pogosyan. He also said that 117 is not the intermediate engines but the engine with which the aircraft will begin service.

          Next question is how fast it can supercruise...

          Comment

          • secondparttohel
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2010
            • 119

            Nice pictures from Flanker: http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthrea...=1#post1377575

            Last edited by secondparttohel; 8th March 2010, 20:07.

            Comment

            • DJ.
              DJ.
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Aug 2008
              • 497

              Wow .... Flanker dwarfs it....

              Comment

              • UAZ
                UAZ
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • May 2007
                • 574

                Indeed, the Flanker looks larger.
                Part of is because of the tall vertical fins and landing gear. But still.

                From this photo we should be able to get more accurate dimensions.

                Comment

                • HAWX ace
                  How do you turn this on?
                  • Jan 2010
                  • 696

                  Originally posted by secondparttohel View Post
                  Nice pictures from Paralay:
                  [IMG*]http://lh5.ggpht.com/_qe-z6hmCgxs/S5IcuIx-4AI/AAAAAAAAABo/m317EkttNFk/IMG_9525.JPG[/IMG]

                  [IMG*]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_qe-z6hmCgxs/S5Icvl5eh3I/AAAAAAAAABw/BV2LnRyF10I/d/IMG_9679.JPG[/IMG]
                  Thanks for sharing.

                  At last some good pics from different angles...
                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • J-20 Hotdog
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2008
                    • 3476

                    Originally posted by HAWX ace View Post
                    Thanks for sharing.

                    At last some good pics from different angles...
                    yep, that front shot is a nice one.

                    what a good looking aircraft. Out of the stealthy shaped manned aircraft that actually flew.. I say its 2nd to the X-32 in the looks department!

                    except for the ****.. T-50 doesn't look so nice there. Its nice to see that its smaller than the Flanker. That aircraft is huge (as are most Russian aircraft)

                    are these recent pictures? I thought they painted it?

                    here's Alecducat's T-50 model from combatace forums

                    Comment

                    • haavarla
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 6694

                      WOW..

                      Step aside F-35

                      The first pic is freaking awsome, just love the part where the blistering snow is blowing across the ground under the T-50
                      And look how the Flight control system is working in the cross wind.
                      Notice at the last pic how the verticals and rudders are placed, indeed huge control surfaces, which bring on the super-manuvrebility factor indeed.
                      The T-50 testing is running smootly it seems.

                      What a sleak looking aircraft seen from frontal, as is the case with all the russian fighter, Su-27, Mig-29, Su-34, T-50.

                      Edit: Somebody pls do a potoshop on that frontal pic so perhaps we can see more inside those air intakes!

                      Edit: Never mind.. Sukhoi have censored the intakes with pitch black, i just checked it on lightroom..



                      Thanks
                      Last edited by haavarla; 7th March 2010, 13:05.
                      Thanks

                      Comment

                      • haavarla
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Dec 2008
                        • 6694

                        Originally posted by DJ. View Post
                        Wow .... Flanker dwarfs it....
                        Don't forget that the Flanker is a UB version, which makes it look larger.





                        Thanks
                        Last edited by haavarla; 7th March 2010, 11:47.
                        Thanks

                        Comment

                        • Acatomic
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2010
                          • 121

                          Can anyone figer out the aproximate size of the plane from those pictures?

                          Comment

                          • wsoul2k
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Feb 2010
                            • 105

                            I really doubt we will seen the blades ... the plane is not exact lined.. but base d on the picture IMHO the duct goes down in a smoth way and covers the blade

                            Comment

                            • aliasmaya
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 14

                              Originally posted by Sens View Post
                              Well, the F119 3900 Ibs(1769kg) is Dry weight.

                              AL-31FM1 Dry weight, kg 1520.

                              So you are saying that US Dry weight and Russian Dry weight is completly two different thing?
                              Thanks
                              AL-31F dry weight is 15** kg under the Russian standard(ГОСТ 17106) since many components are not counted ,such as engine electronic regulator(KRD99),gearbox(VKA99),oil/fuel cooler,outer nozzle flaps and etc..
                              by Western and Chinese way ,it weighs 1759 to 1799 kg and therefore AL-31F true T/W ratio is ~7:1.

                              Originally posted by Sens View Post
                              The Russian way to give the weight of an engine differs from the West. The Chinese stick to the French way ( the weight of an installed engine in working condition and by that the same AL-31F becomes 300 kg heavier f.e..
                              Last edited by aliasmaya; 8th March 2010, 03:36.

                              Comment

                              • Otaku
                                Senior Member
                                • Jun 2007
                                • 1410

                                The most beautiful plane I've ever seen...sorry YF-23- but you've held the top spot for some time now...


                                Comment

                                • Amiga500
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Feb 2010
                                  • 2166

                                  Originally posted by wsoul2k View Post
                                  You need to move those two discs inboard further. You are probably aligned with the turbine blades, the compressor blades will be a good distance upstream, and hence further intoward the plane centreline... and perhaps vertically down a bit too.

                                  Comment

                                  • aliasmaya
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Apr 2009
                                    • 14

                                    Originally posted by Austin View Post
                                    May be but those data are from the manufacture and those are really as good as it gets.

                                    The AL-31FP certainly has a T/W ratio of 8:1 no doubt and the AL-31 ( 117C ) which as the interview says is a cheaper version of 117 certainly reaches a T/W ratio of 9:1 in peace time rating ( ~14 T ) and betters that in combat ( 14.5 T )

                                    117 which powers the PAK-FA is a new engine in development for the past 5 years and not all performance figures are reveled , the only known figures so far are weight reduction of ~ 150 kg over 117C and Thrust of ~ 15 T , they certainly have exploited their experience in developing AL-41F and have used hot parts in 117C and developed new technologies for 117

                                    At least from know figures reveled so far on 117 this new engine is comparable to EJ200 in T/W class.
                                    AL-31FP should be heavier than AL-31F .Izdeliye-117 could have a T/W ratio of 8.5~9:1.
                                    Attached Files
                                    Last edited by aliasmaya; 7th March 2010, 16:17.

                                    Comment

                                    • wsoul2k
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Feb 2010
                                      • 105

                                      Originally posted by Amiga500 View Post
                                      You need to move those two discs inboard further. You are probably aligned with the turbine blades, the compressor blades will be a good distance upstream, and hence further intoward the plane centreline... and perhaps vertically down a bit too.
                                      I just aligned the discs with the exaust circuference, i have increased the ligth in the shadows and we can see a litle of the curves over the duct IMHO it is enough to hide the blades.

                                      Can you put another disc over mine to show your opinion where compresso blades could be?

                                      Comment

                                      • Amiga500
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Feb 2010
                                        • 2166

                                        Originally posted by wsoul2k View Post
                                        Can you put another disc over mine to show your opinion where compresso blades could be?
                                        IMO, they would be approximately where the large yellow panels on the upper surface end (their trailing edge)...

                                        Last edited by Amiga500; 7th March 2010, 14:54.

                                        Comment

                                        • aliasmaya
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Apr 2009
                                          • 14

                                          Originally posted by Sens View Post

                                          The sfc claim of 0.67 is the best value in max dry and does rise by lower power settings.
                                          0.67 is Cruise SFC at SLS(n2:85%~90%)

                                          Last edited by aliasmaya; 7th March 2010, 15:20.

                                          Comment

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