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  • Marco S.
    started a topic Lancaster, err Wellington wreck

    Lancaster, err Wellington wreck

    Good afternoon,

    My compliments, this website is incredibly rich, it takes hours to visit the main topics!

    I am a 26 years old researcher from Northern Italy. I am currently trying to discover and to show the history of a plane wreck I found this summer, at more than 2900 meters on the Western Alps.
    Here you may find the photos and datas I already posted,

    http://www.iphpbb.com/board/ftopic-8...9380-1556.html

    You have to know that this crash site is covered by snow for at least 11 months per year, so it is quite difficult to look for other parts; I will come up there next spring, I hope.
    According to archives, this should be the wreck of Lancaster LM339. It crashed up there after striking Milano, during August, 1943. I would like to identify it for sure.

    Here, in the end, the list of the five inscriptions I found on the parts:

    number 1 28527
    numero 2 nothing
    numero 3 nn.
    numero 4 nn.
    numero 5 nn.
    numero 6 nn.
    numero 7 08ISS B
    numero 8 nn.
    numero 9 nn.
    numero 10 nn.
    numero 11 0130
    numero 12 32311 (with a strange symbol, where I read 42 and S)
    number 13 nn.


    Thank you all for your kind help.
    With my kindest regards,

    Marco

  • Marco S.
    replied
    Hi all,

    I am back after the Eni Award conclusion..

    I have already started to write my tale. Regards!

    Marco

    Leave a comment:


  • Marco S.
    replied
    Hi Kev, thank you,


    Very sorry, I am really busy and until this moment I could not read the forum..

    Very very interesting. If it was my plane, the one whose flames saved the lives of other crews, it would be incredible.
    I will contact Shawn Doyle, thank you.

    Leave a comment:


  • kev35
    replied
    Creaking Door.

    It makes you wonder doesn't it? And whoever it was, it's astonishing to think that their deaths as the aircraft exploded might just have meant the difference between life and death for at least one other crew.

    Marco.

    Have emailed CWGC and expect a reply in six to eight weeks.

    Regards,

    kev35

    Leave a comment:


  • Creaking Door
    replied
    Originally posted by BillTurner View Post
    One plane was seen smacking into a mountain, its explosion lighting up the terrain for other luckier crews who relied on this morbid illumination to avoid the same fate.
    I wonder if this aircraft could have been LN466?

    Leave a comment:


  • Creaking Door
    replied
    Susan (Shawn and Bill) welcome to the forum.

    What a remarkable coincidence that you son is now living in Italy.

    For anybody new to this thread Bill’s wartime service is the subject of this article from the January 2008 edition of the ‘Clarion Newsletter’:
    Originally posted by Creaking Door View Post
    Here is an account from 205 Group navigator Flight Lieutenant William (Bill) Turner RCAF that I found on the web:

    Raid on Turin Ball Bearing Factory 24th November 1943:

    "A pronounced cold front was very active over the area we were to traverse. It was hoped the front would weaken before we arrived at the Italian coast; but it grew more intense with winds 50-70 knots - this was not to helpful for an aircraft flying at 120 knots. We were blown off course and we were unable to get a specific pinpoint. We were confronted by masses of cumulus and cumulonimbus clouds. We couldn’t reach a higher altitude as our dear old Wimpy had troubles. We had to go below the cloud to try to get an accurate pinpoint to put us on the right course to the target.

    We descended to a planned altitude of 3000 ft. I suddenly spotted a light that should not have been there. The WOP dropped a small flare and immediately lit up the ground below us revealing an Italian Villa with a marble statue in the garden. We were less than 300 ft, I anxiously told our Pilot to pull up and told the bomb aimer, who was in the nose of the craft, to drop our bomb load. We were just about blown to pieces by our own bombs. Our pilot (Eric) saw more than the rest of the crew - he never spoke the rest of the way home.

    We then went down the coast of Sardinia. We saw two or three explosions, which were later, discovered as being crashed Wellingtons. We finally got a pinpoint and headed to our landing strip at El Oudna in Tunisia. The de-briefing was not a happy one - the losses were in the neighbourhood of 25% with very few aircraft reaching the target."

    www.unit302.ca/ClarionJanuary2008.pdf (Page 8)

    This excellent account comes from the January 2008 edition of the ‘Clarion Newsletter’ from the Sidney Unit #302 website:

    http://www.unit302.ca/

    Leave a comment:


  • BillTurner
    replied
    Bill Turner was there that night flying over Turin in his Wellington bomber

    Hello Marco and others,

    My Dad, Bill Turner, is 86 years old and doesn't use computers, but on November 24th, 1943 he was sent on a mission to bomb a factory in Turin. He is Canadian, but was flying with the RAF Squadron 104. There were several Wellington bombers sent on that raid....7 or 8 squadrons with 7 or 8 bombers each. The weather was terrible. Eight of the planes on the mission didnt make it back to base. None of the crews found their targets. One plane was seen smacking into a mountain, its explosion lighting up the terrain for other luckier crews who relied on this morbid illumination to avoid the same fate. Dad ended up dropping his bombs to reduce the weight of the plane, in order to get over the mountain and avoid a similar crash. For the past 60 years whenever he mentions that raid over Turin, it brings him to tears. It was a stormy night and he couldn't see anything and he has always worried that he may have dropped his bombs on innocent people below. Because this bothered him so much, my son, Shawn Doyle has spent the last two years researching this episode, trying to find out if any bombs were reported falling and killing anybody that night anywhere around Turin. Shawn lives in Milan, Italy. If you want to learn more, Shawn's email is sdoyle@post.harvard.edu. (He speaks Italian). You can also phone Bill Turner in Canada at 1-250-655-0685. He has a fabulous memory of everything!

    Bill Turner's daughter, Susan Doyle

    Leave a comment:


  • Marco S.
    replied
    Thank you all, Kev, Resmoroh, Alan,

    Very kind from you all. I read your posts this night but I could not answer.
    The simulator page concerning a Wellington bomber was simply great. And the datas from the ORB, too. Thank you very much.

    Is it possible to have a scan or photographed versione, please?

    Leave a comment:


  • Resmoroh
    replied
    Kev,
    Some months ago I was able (with my very limited abilities on Flt Sims) to produce a "photo" of the situation - as viewed from a Lancaster Pilot's seat - of the conditions apertaining to a particular event, in the place, and at the time. The Moon, etc, was in precisely the right place at the date/time, and the Lanc was headed in the right direction and at the right height.
    I say this not to beat my own drum, but simply to indicate that if I (at my very low level of expertise) can do it then others, more experienced, can do better. Whilst you just have to input date/time into a FS program it will give you correct astronomical situation, the input of the met parameters is much more difficult. The actual conditions may not be known. A (mythical!) Met Sect may be able to give a close approximation (but all Met Persons hedge their bets - it's bred into us from an early age!!). But just where, on any trip, the accretion of airframe/engine icing, and electrical activity became more than could be coped with by the a/c's systems is a matter for debate. This was a problem that the COI had to deal with in the 1940's! And still, to a certain extent even with our magical systems, today.
    HTH
    Resmoroh

    Leave a comment:


  • Creaking Door
    replied
    Maybe it is worth posting something on the Key Publishing ‘Flight Simulation’ forum?

    Leave a comment:


  • kev35
    replied
    I think Resmoroh's posts about a reconstruction of the last flight of LN466 ia a brilliant one and something I would never have thought of.As Marco was asking about the creation of maps earlier, would it be possible to tie the reconstruction and maps together? I have no idea about flight simulation but it sounds like a good idea.

    Regards,

    kev35

    Leave a comment:


  • Alan Clark
    replied
    The ORB had the other operations they had flown but not much else, the appendices for 1943 are missing, it runs from 1941 - 1939 - 1937 - 1944 - 1945 so is of no use. I was hoping they would have been there and there would be a copy of the orders etc.

    I did take photos of all the pages (original files sizes ~3.5Mb).

    Leave a comment:


  • kev35
    replied
    Marco.

    I think Alan Clark has given you most of the information the ORB will provide except for specifics. I think we're now moving into areas in which I won't know enough to be of any further help but if there is anything that crops that I can help with I'll be happy to oblige.

    Thanks to you bringing this to our attention, five men (although not those you expected) have had their story brought to a wider audience and in so doing their service and sacrifice is honoured.

    Regards,

    kev35

    Leave a comment:


  • 50sqnwop/ag
    replied
    Just bought that add on and it looks good so far......

    M

    Leave a comment:


  • Alan Clark
    replied
    This should provide a bit more, the extracts from the Operations Record Book for No.142 Sqn.

    The crew had flown a few operations since arriving in mid-October 43 and had already lost a crewman, their Navigator.

    No.142 Squadron, Oudna:

    October 17th 1943, The following replacement crew posted to this Unit w.e.f. 16/10: SGT J.G. WADE (P), P/O S. POTTS (NAV), SGT A.C. GLENWRIGHT (B/A), SGT J.F. KNAPP (W/OP), SGT K.R. CARTER (A/G).

    October 21st 1943, The crew missing last night were: F/S CLOSE S.M. (P), F/S WILLIAMS R.C. (B/A), W/O CRANER J.J. (W/OP), SGT SMITH P.L. (A/G) and F/O POTTS S. (NAV) who was navigator in SGT WADEs crew. F/S ROBINS navigator in F/S CLOSEs crew is sick.

    November 24th 1943, Fifteen a/c were detailed to bomb the Fiat Ball Bearing Plant at Turin. One a/c (a 4000lb) went to advance base at KIMAS/SARDINIA but did not take off owing to refuelling difficulties. One aircraft returned early with engine trouble. Eight aircraft landed safely at BASE. Five aircraft are unaccounted for and must be presumed missing. Owing to extremely bad weather conditions N of CORSICA six aircraft were forced to turn back. Two aircraft reached the target area but were unable to identify owing to 10/10 low cloud. One of the eight accounted for was acting as illuminator for 231 Wing but was forced to turn back by the weather conditions. The weather was fair up to G.CORSE then deteriorated rapidly with 10/10 medium from 2-5000 and another layer of 10/10 from 6000 to over 11000. Rain and icing was encountered above 7000. From the whole Group nineteen aircraft are unaccounted for.

    November 24th 1943,
    Wellington X
    P. LN466

    F/S Wade J. P
    A.410323 F/S Glenwright A. N
    A.415664 F/S Knapp J. B
    Sgt Carter K. W/Op
    Sgt Lawrence K. RG

    Up: 16:41

    6x500, 2x250
    ETA message sent returning bad weather. No further news

    November 29th 1943, Squadron Stand-Down. One of the crews missing on the night 24/25.11 (F/S BRYANT and crew) are now known to be safe, having made their way to BASTIA/CORSICA. The crew now unaccounted for from the night 24/25.11 are: F/S R.C. TYASS (P), SGT SUMMERS F. (NAV), SGT KNIGHT W. (B/A), SGT LE BOLDUS J. (A/G) SGT WADE J.G. (P), F/S LAWRENCE L.E. (NAV), SGT GLENWRIGHT A.C. (B/A), SGT KNAPP J.F. (W/OP), SGT CARTER K.R. (A/G) SGT HETTS R.H. (P), SGT HURNELL P. (NAV), SGT SMITH S.F. (B/A), SGT BOWMAN C.T. (W/OP), SGT BARTON S.A. (A/G) SGT OULLETTE S.J. (P), P/O MAIR C.M. (NAV), SGT ARMSTRONG G.P. (B/A), SGT BOWERING G. (W/OP), SGT TOPP G.U. (A/G) SGT SMITH A.D. (P) was flying as second Pilot and SGT CLARK H.A. (W/OP) as Wireless Operator in F/S TYASS crew.


    The National Archives file reference is AIR 27/974

    Leave a comment:


  • vacb
    replied
    Originally posted by Resmoroh View Post
    Marco,
    It is indeed possible. If you can find a modern airframe that replicates (roughly) the performance characteristics (height, speed, etc) of a Wellington then it does not matter that you are using some modern airframe.
    How about this chaps?

    http://www.flightsim.com/main/review/wellngtn.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • kev35
    replied
    Good luck Marco.

    I hope your research reaches a satisfactory conclusion.

    Regards,

    kev35

    Leave a comment:


  • Marco S.
    replied
    Dear Resmoroh,


    Thank you: this is a fascinating idea. I will try to find some simulator's fan and I will provide him\ her the most detailed infos on this kind of bomber, course, weather and so on.

    I underlined that I am obliged to read and study this material only by night to answer to Kev, who suggested me to read better the NAA documents. I just want to say that this search for me is a real pleasure, and whatever amount of paper to be read will never reach the risk, the fatigue and level of attention requested to reach the crash point.
    I would also like to repeat, as already done in this topic and elsewhere, that all my sources (persons, archives, titles of books and so on) will be clearily showed, if I will publish my essay. This is out of question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Resmoroh
    replied
    Marco,
    It is indeed possible. If you can find a modern airframe that replicates (roughly) the performance characteristics (height, speed, etc) of a Wellington then it does not matter that you are using some modern airframe. The modern Flight Sim programs allow you to input (and change) the winds and weather - and then re-"fly" the route (again, and again, if necessary!!!).
    I am not a qualified Pilot, but I was taught how to handle an aircraft. I can see a lot of these problems not just from the Met Man's angle, but also the Pilot's angle. When you finish your hard day's work at 2000 get yourself down to your local Flt Sim Club. They will welcome you because you have a "real" problem. Do not blame me if you do not get to bed until the early hours of the morning. Investigations of this sort can become addictive, but just once in a while they throw up the answer to your problem.
    Good fun, as we say in UK
    HTH
    Resmoroh
    Last edited by Resmoroh; 14th October 2009, 14:33.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marco S.
    replied
    Hi Resmoroh,


    incredible - is it possible to use a flight simulator???
    I supposed that this kind of software was just a game..

    Leave a comment:

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