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  • Creaking Door
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Sep 2006
    • 9815

    Originally posted by Lyffe View Post
    Creaking Door,

    Re your post No 80, at 1645 on 2 Oct . Does this debrief refer to the raid launched on the 23rd, or is it another raid the following day (it refers to a raid on Turin on 24th)?
    The way I read it take-off would have been late on the 24th November and landing early on the 25th November. The unhappy debriefing taking place on the 25th November; immediately after landing from a bombing raid seems to have been the usual practice.

    For those interested in the route(s) flown during this raid notice the phrase used by this crew in this account for their return: We then went down the coast of Sardinia.
    WA$.

    Comment

    • JDK
      JDK
      Mr Tweed
      • Sep 2003
      • 8443

      Fascinating thread, wonderful work, gents [Edit] and lady! A great example of where lots of different people can bring specialist knowledge to unravelling the story.

      Marco, I have your e-mail and will reply shortly.
      Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
      great reconstruction, thank you. Does anybody know if it is possible to publish on an eventual essay these images, taken from Google Earth? I should look and see for its editorial policy.
      If you are publishing as an academic not-for-profit exercise, check for permission first, and they may well be OK. If it's to be published in a book or magazine 'for profit', then you may be requested to pay a fee (one that often exceeds any possible payment - let alone the 'profit' part - for publication, btw). However it is possible to get an artist to create a specially drawn map for you. Who know who might pop up here next!

      Regards,
      Last edited by JDK; 19th October 2009, 10:39.
      James K

      Looking and thinking...
      Vintage Aero Writer: Blog & Details

      Comment

      • Marco S.
        Rank 4 Registered User
        • Sep 2009
        • 57

        Hi all,


        Today, I am going to write the first part of my tale.. Historical day! If I'd be able to publish it, it would be nice to translate it all in English, then to submit here on this forum or to make it downloadable, in order to allow you all to read it..

        Ok, coming down from the orbit, you right JDK. I already published two manuals, one concerning Ayas Valley and the second about MTB, and both the time we had to kindly ask for maps. They're strictly protected by copyright. Maybe I could find common maps, drawing by myself with Photoshop their probable course.
        Yesterday night I came to know an interesting detail. This plane never dropped its charge. Its.. charge was then made explode by partisans in 1944. They first had to look for these weaps under the remaining snow.

        Ok, the last thing I would do is this: that night, during this raid over Torino, some other planes went lost. The question is, where?
        Why? For bad weather, for fuel lack or what?

        Comment

        • kev35
          Terminally Bewildered
          • Jan 2000
          • 7375

          Marco.

          It was purely the awful weather. And as regards the bomb on the mountain it is mentioned in the first MRES/MREU report in Glenwright's file. If you wait for the ORB from the National Archives it might tell you what the bomb loads were, and which of the aircraft which managed to return jettisoned their bombs and possible locations. It should also contain more eyewitness accounts of the weather experienced by 142 Squadron crews on the operation.

          Time of take off for LN466 was 16.41 on the 24th November. I would expect that take off times for the other Squadrons would have been simpler.

          Regards,

          kev35
          The Forums only '"blithering anorak" as endorsed by ZRX61

          Comment

          • Ballykellybrat
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Apr 2007
            • 77

            Gentlemen - your collective expertise simply astounds me.
            A few very modest comments. There were two Oudna airfields (about 10 miles apart), 142 being based at Oudna No.2. The average speed assumed for a Wimpey X of 175 mph seems high. The Pilots Notes recommend airspeeds of (at medium altitudes) 155 mph fully loaded on the outward journey & 140 mph lightly loaded on the homeward journey. My father flying from Djedeida recorded 7 hours 40 minutes on this operation. And I complain on a 31/2 hour Thomson flight to Crete!
            Bill

            Comment

            • Resmoroh
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Apr 2007
              • 978

              Bill,
              Have you got the co-ords for the 'other' Oudna? And which was One and which was Two?
              TIA
              Resmoroh
              Meteorology is a science: good meteorology is an art.

              Comment

              • kev35
                Terminally Bewildered
                • Jan 2000
                • 7375

                Halley's Squadrons of the Royal Air Force lists 142 being based at Oudna but 150 Squadron appears as based at Oudna 2.

                It was purely a guess as to speed Ballykellybrat, so I'm happy to be corrected. Surprised to find that the speed fully laden is greater than that when lightly loaded?

                Marco.

                Just for interest, the digitised files show that F/Sgt Knapp had a brother serving in the RAAF. His name is given as C H Knapp and he was a staff pilot at 1 WAGS (Wireless and Air Gunnery School?) at Ballarat.

                I think there's a lot more to add to all this if the time and the will is there. Personal details, obituaries, where they are commemorated, maybe even photographs of them, but I get the impression Marco now has what the needs.

                Not bad really for what started out as a search for a Lancaster.

                Regards,

                kev35
                The Forums only '"blithering anorak" as endorsed by ZRX61

                Comment

                • Moggy C
                  Moderator
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 20534

                  Marco, I have a good Italian friend who speaks perfect English and is a writer too. I am sure he would translate the history into English for you if that would help?

                  Moggy
                  "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                  Comment

                  • Ballykellybrat
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 77

                    Can't be definitive but I reckon that Oudna No.1 is at 36.38.11.96N, 10.05.49.00E. No.2 is (probably) the current airfield at Bordj El Amri at 36.43.42.46N, 09.56.08.98E. It all seems to fit with Djedeida No.2 visible on Google Earth just to the North of Oudna No.2. 70 Squadron was at Djedeida No.1.
                    HTH
                    Bill

                    Comment

                    • Marco S.
                      Rank 4 Registered User
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 57

                      Hi all and thank you,


                      Extremely interesting.
                      Kev, you absolutely right, I started looking for a plane who never reached Issime, crashing somewhere over Milano.. And here what I found!
                      I would like to ask you all some suggestions about contacting the families of there crewmembers. Would it be right or not? Would I only risk to re-open again, in 2009, a sad, old story they maybe forget? Would it be good to search for them, or not?

                      Thank you Moggy, I also worked as translator, if possible I would be pleased to spend a whole month translating this eventual history in my best English or French.. There are no problems.

                      Comment

                      • Resmoroh
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 978

                        Bill,
                        Tks yr info.
                        We appear to be agreed that Oudna 1 was at 36.38.11.96N, 10.05.49.00E.
                        Oudna 2 is (very possibly) at the current airfield at Borj el Amri. This, again, has a single runway (126/306 degrees True) fairly flat at about 100 ft AMSL, and about 1800m in length - there is nothing I can 'see' that indicates that it was ever any longer. I can 'see' from crop/soil marks no more than 20 hardstandings on a perimeter track on only the northeast side of the main runway (some may have been obscured by modern building). No problems in the circuit, or on approach.
                        The runway at Jedeida is 020/200 degs True and 1800m in length (some tenuous indication that it might, at one stage, have been 2000m). Centre height 56ft AMSL (61ft at the southwest end, and 47ft at the northeast end). Again, the peritrack taxiway on both sides of the main runway with 50-odd 'banjo' type hardstandings. Looks like the US CBs had a standard pattern to work to.
                        HTH
                        Resmoroh
                        Meteorology is a science: good meteorology is an art.

                        Comment

                        • Lyffe
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Mar 2006
                          • 324

                          Kev,

                          You asked earlier if there were any meteorological implications - there's not much that can usefully be added as the debriefs are consistent in describing typical active cold front conditions. That said there are a couple of things about the Flt/Lt Bill Turner's account (posted by CD on 2 October) that intrigue me.

                          Firstly he quotes the aircraft flying at 120 mph (considerably slower than the speeds estimated by others (150-175 mph) in various posts in the thread. If the outbound leg was between 650 and 700 miles it would take between 5.5 and 6 hours to reach the target, which is consistent with the report from the lost aircraft that it was returning 6 hours after take-off.

                          Secondly his quote refers to experiencing winds of 50-60 knots as being 'not good for aircraft flying at 120 mph'. I've been puzzling as to what he meant by 'not good'. Upper winds of that strength, associated with active cold fronts over the Mediterranean, are usually from between south and southwest, not from the northwest or north. I don't think he was referring to a headwind (definitely not good) nor a tailwind (which would have been useful), but rather a strong beam wind, especially as he notes the aircraft was blown off course.

                          So I think those of you who are trying to plot the aircraft's actual track (as opposed to the planned one) should take into account the aircraft being east (possibly well east) of Portofino as it crossed the Italian coast.

                          Brian

                          Comment

                          • Creaking Door
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 9815

                            Originally posted by Lyffe View Post
                            Firstly he quotes the aircraft flying at 120 mph (considerably slower than the speeds estimated by others (150-175 mph) in various posts in the thread. If the outbound leg was between 650 and 700 miles it would take between 5.5 and 6 hours to reach the target, which is consistent with the report from the lost aircraft that it was returning 6 hours after take-off.
                            I suppose it depends if 120 knots is their airspeed or groundspeed; since Bill Turner was navigator on this flight would it be unreasonable to assume he was quoting groundspeed because that would be what he would be using to follow the route and time turning points.
                            WA$.

                            Comment

                            • kev35
                              Terminally Bewildered
                              • Jan 2000
                              • 7375

                              Lyffe.

                              Thanks very much for that. The 175 mph was purely my spectacularly wild guess.

                              Marco.

                              I think you very much have the basic story behind LN466 but how far do you intend to go with it? Is this enough? Or would you like to explore the other avenues which may or may not be open? I'm thinking in terms of the following.....

                              Using the ORB to track down how experienced each crew was.

                              Discovering how many other operations they had completed and their targets.

                              Trying to obtain photographs of them.

                              Exploring the ways in which they are commemorated.

                              Unearthing newspaper articles to provide further information.

                              Possibly tracking down their families.

                              All of the above are, to a greater or lesser degree, achievable.

                              Your thoughts?

                              Regards,

                              kev35
                              The Forums only '"blithering anorak" as endorsed by ZRX61

                              Comment

                              • galdri
                                Half Wit
                                • Jan 2000
                                • 1360

                                Guys,
                                This is one of the most fashinating thread on here in a long time

                                Ive nothing to offer, but my thank you to all who have participated.
                                Those who can.....do,
                                Those who can not.....teach (that's me!)

                                Comment

                                • Marco S.
                                  Rank 4 Registered User
                                  • Sep 2009
                                  • 57

                                  Dear Galdri, you are absolutely welcome.
                                  It has been an incredible research for me, too. If you imagine that I was looking for the wrong plane..!!

                                  Dear Kev,

                                  you've done really important questions.
                                  In effect, I already have many details and I already started writing the first introductive pages of my "tale", during this weekend.
                                  I would like to know more, and I already found a very special witness, aged but more intelligent and active than me!, who is ready to tell me the "local history" of this old crash accident. In effect, I need to know who is the "doctor" who took the rests to the Issime Cemetery, who dismantled the plane.. and, if this would a perfect world, a photo of the wreck.

                                  I still do not know if it would be right to try to contact the Australian relatives and friends of these three crewmen. I asked for the ORB but still no answers from UK.
                                  Last edited by Marco S.; 13th October 2009, 14:04.

                                  Comment

                                  • GliderSpit
                                    Flying Dutchman
                                    • Aug 2006
                                    • 1126

                                    Originally posted by galdri View Post
                                    Guys,
                                    This is one of the most fashinating thread on here in a long time

                                    Ive nothing to offer, but my thank you to all who have participated.
                                    Can't agree more. Would like to nomimate this thread for the "best thread of 2009" award.
                                    Possunt quia posse videntur (They can because they think they can; motto RAF 19 Squadron)

                                    tracesofwar.com/

                                    Comment

                                    • Atcham Tower
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Mar 2005
                                      • 780

                                      Marco, I don't think it has been mentioned before but I wonder if you know that a Memorial Certificate for each casualty can be printed off the CWGC website? This is the one for Sgt Ross.

                                      http://www.cwgc.org/search/certifica...sualty=2816774

                                      Comment

                                      • Atcham Tower
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Mar 2005
                                        • 780

                                        Sgt Ross Carter, I should have written!

                                        Comment

                                        • Creaking Door
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Sep 2006
                                          • 9815

                                          Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
                                          ...I already found a very special witness, aged but more intelligent and active than me!, who is ready to tell me the "local history" of this old crash accident.
                                          Is it possible that any of the local witnesses remember the time of the crash? Although it would seem a lot to ask often it is easier to remember what time something occurred, but not the date.

                                          Originally posted by kev35 View Post
                                          Time of take off for LN466 was 16.41 on the 24th November.
                                          Thanks to Kev we have the exact take-off time and we have the planned route so it may be possible to work out something about how the aircraft came to be so far off course.
                                          WA$.

                                          Comment

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