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Lancaster, err Wellington wreck

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  • Marco S.
    Rank 4 Registered User

    Ok, now I understood,


    They simply did not notified yet. No problem.
    I am downloading all these files for the three crewmembers.. very good, my research will be scientifically perfect!

    Concerning the map of the probable course, may you send it to me by mail, please? Whoever is able to create such a map.. Or I'll ask to a friend of mine. She is a skipper.

    Comment

    • Resmoroh
      Rank 5 Registered User

      Kev35,
      Kev, we (the Met Sect) need to confer. Emails have been sent. As you may be aware, we are not overly enamoured of "Historical Charts". But, as an initial response, it is possible that all 'was not well' with the weather. Lyffe may feel himself able to pronounce simply by looking at the "Historical Charts". On the other hand he might need to look at the real charts archived from the real time. This may take some time! But seeing as I had a reply to a post on a Family History site 8 years after posting!!!!!! - then don't hold your breath.
      Resmoroh
      Last edited by Resmoroh; 10th October 2009, 15:24.
      Meteorology is a science: good meteorology is an art.

      Comment

      • kev35
        Terminally Bewildered

        Resmoroh, Marco et al.

        Any help with met conditions might be helpful. We're going deep into uncharted territory for me.

        As for the route out, I'm not making much sense of it at all and at the moment google is most definitely NOT my friend. Base, obviously, is Oudna. St. Point? Is that short for starting point? Comino is Malta, Portofino is near Genoa. As for the other names mentioned, on the outward or return routes, I am at a loss. Are we looking at Comino on Malta as a friendly diversionary base followed by a run up the West coast of Italy?

        Any thoughts?

        Regards,

        kev35
        The Forums only '"blithering anorak" as endorsed by ZRX61

        Comment

        • Marco S.
          Rank 4 Registered User

          Mmmh... strange. Why should I touch Malta if, from Tunisia, I have to reach Northern Italy? Genova?

          Comment

          • Flat 12x2
            Rank 5 Registered User

            Originally posted by kev35 View Post
            As for the route out, I'm not making much sense of it at all and at the moment google is most definitely NOT my friend. Base, obviously, is Oudna. St. Point? Is that short for starting point? Comino is Malta, Portofino is near Genoa. As for the other names mentioned, on the outward or return routes, I am at a loss. Are we looking at Comino on Malta as a friendly diversionary base followed by a run up the West coast of Italy?

            Any thoughts?

            Regards,

            kev35
            Same problems here Kev, so I just plotted the those I could find which fortunately are the most important ones.
            All images from Google Earth
            Oudna Airfield


            Approx location of crash site , 3 miles west of Issime


            Approx flight path


            Detail of flight path


            3D detail
            Wide open & turning left

            Comment

            • kev35
              Terminally Bewildered

              I think I've worked it out. Hadn't Italy surrendered by the the operation on the 24th/25th November? Thereby giving crews safe haven anywhere south of the German lines should it be needed?

              Regards,

              kev35
              The Forums only '"blithering anorak" as endorsed by ZRX61

              Comment

              • Icare9
                Rank 5 Registered User

                The flight plan given is Oudna (36.37.53.51 N; 10.06.17.24 E on Google Earth) then to St Point, Comino, Cape Coree (Corse?), near Portofino (approx 44.35 N; 09.03 E) then North West to Asti and NW again to Turin. Return leg is from Turin to the coast at Albenga (approx 44.03 N; 08.12 E) then back to Cape Crose (Corse?), Comino, St Point and back to Oudna.
                I can't find St Point, Cape Coree, Crose or Corse but the track must be approx due North, passing the East coasts of Sardinia and Corsica to the Italian coast near Portofino, thence NW to Asti and Turin.
                Now, Marco will have to help with more precise location, but Issime is at approx 45.40 N; 7.52 E. That is a good distance FURTHER North North East, in completely the wrong direction to return home or towards Turin.......
                I hope Marco can follow, this, it is very easy to forget that he isn't English, so good is his understanding, but I hope I haven't used words that are not readily understood.
                That explains why they are now buried in Milan War Cemetery, rather than Staglieno War Cemetery, which is adjacent to Portofino, where other crashed crews were buried.
                I noted from Kev35 extract from the files that 6 hours after they took off they radioed to say they were "Returning to base, bad weather". I'm not sure of the endurance of the Wellington but I guess it was about 8 hours before they would have run out of fuel, so looks as if the reason they hit the mountain was possibly that they were very low on fuel and expected to be over the sea, not in the mountains.
                Having set out the broad outlines, I'll leave it to the experts to mull over any points this may raise.
                Marco, as the wreckage you have doesn't react to the magnet, it shows it is a Wellington X with aluminium alloy structure, confirmed by the engine found in the wreckage as being LN466.

                Hope this helps!

                Comment

                • kev35
                  Terminally Bewildered

                  I'm going to have to go away and try and get my head round this. I'm now sure we've got the right aircraft and right crew but the route is confusing me. Perhaps Comino was used before running up the Italian coast to avoid Sardinia, then across to Corsica (Cape Corse) just before they got to Rome thereby avoiding Luftwaffe fighter units?

                  Regards,

                  kev35
                  The Forums only '"blithering anorak" as endorsed by ZRX61

                  Comment

                  • Marco S.
                    Rank 4 Registered User

                    Hi Icare,

                    great reconstruction, thank you. Does anybody know if it is possible to publish on an eventual essay these images, taken from Google Earth? I should look and see for its editorial policy.

                    So "Port" was the worldwide famous Portofino??

                    I suppose these maps to be correct. Maybe they simply found opposite winds, flying lower, crashing against the first Valle d'Aosta mountains while believing to remain on the sea or on the Piemonte plan. Very sad.

                    It would be really important to find the meteo maps of that week.. is it possible?

                    M.

                    Comment

                    • Resmoroh
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      Had they been badly hit by flak over the target and were trying to make neutral Switzerland to lob-in?
                      Resmoroh
                      Meteorology is a science: good meteorology is an art.

                      Comment

                      • kev35
                        Terminally Bewildered

                        No aircraft reached the target the weather was that bad.

                        Let's just assume for a minute the route is as I suggested, Comino, to Corsica, to Portifino then roaming around Northern Italy to find the target (and failing). At an average speed of say 175 miles per hour, how far would the six hours take them along the route. Maximum range for a Wellington was just over 2,000 miles.

                        Regards,

                        kev35
                        The Forums only '"blithering anorak" as endorsed by ZRX61

                        Comment

                        • Flat 12x2
                          Rank 5 Registered User

                          Originally posted by kev35 View Post
                          No aircraft reached the target the weather was that bad.

                          Let's just assume for a minute the route is as I suggested, Comino, to Corsica, to Portifino then roaming around Northern Italy to find the target (and failing). At an average speed of say 175 miles per hour, how far would the six hours take them along the route. Maximum range for a Wellington was just over 2,000 miles.

                          Regards,

                          kev35
                          Using the route I plotted its 660 miles to the crash site which is 43 miles north of the target.

                          Edit to add, going via Comino Malta is an extra 330 miles, so probably not the Comino we are after.
                          Last edited by Flat 12x2; 10th October 2009, 18:25.
                          Wide open & turning left

                          Comment

                          • kev35
                            Terminally Bewildered

                            Flat 12.

                            Interesting. If we take the average speed on your route as 175 miles per hour that comes to just short of four hours but the message received was after six hours.

                            I don't have the computer skills to do what you have done but could you plot a course to Comino, then the northern tip of Corsica then on to Portofino and Asti yo yje crash site and see how far that is please? It would be most appreciated if you could.

                            Regards,

                            kev35
                            The Forums only '"blithering anorak" as endorsed by ZRX61

                            Comment

                            • kev35
                              Terminally Bewildered

                              Flat 12.

                              Just seen your edit. If you think about it Comino, Malta now makes perfect sense as the extra 330 miles would add another two hours making it approximately six hours flying. The time that the last message was heard from the crew. I really think you might have cracked it with that edit.

                              Regards,

                              kev35
                              The Forums only '"blithering anorak" as endorsed by ZRX61

                              Comment

                              • Flat 12x2
                                Rank 5 Registered User

                                Originally posted by kev35 View Post
                                Flat 12.

                                Interesting. If we take the average speed on your route as 175 miles per hour that comes to just short of four hours but the message received was after six hours.

                                I don't have the computer skills to do what you have done but could you plot a course to Comino, then the northern tip of Corsica then on to Portofino and Asti yo yje crash site and see how far that is please? It would be most appreciated if you could.

                                Regards,

                                kev35
                                Hi Kev via you route its 1000 miles or 872 Nautical miles if that makes a difference.
                                I have now found a Comino on Sardinia, its Cape Comino , its the most easterly point on Sardinia, 3/4 of the way up the island, and a likely navigation point.
                                http://www.italyaround.com/eng/sardi...omino_map.html
                                Wide open & turning left

                                Comment

                                • kev35
                                  Terminally Bewildered

                                  Brilliant.

                                  So we can rule out Malta and the remaining or missing two hours could be taken up in searching for the target or perhaps the speed was lower due to wind etc.?

                                  Regards,

                                  kev35
                                  The Forums only '"blithering anorak" as endorsed by ZRX61

                                  Comment

                                  • Icare9
                                    Rank 5 Registered User

                                    Agree, the Capo Comino is on a probable track almost due North from Oudna. There is also a Cap Corse (on, what for it.... Corsica) which again is on a similar due North track from Oudna. There is a Comino in Italy, but like Comino in Malta it's making a great circular diversion, instead of a fairly direct route up to the Italian coast turn half left and you'll hit Turin......
                                    If they didn't find Turin, did they bomb any target or simply jettison the load? Unless they thought to bring them back? Surely they would just drop the bombs over what they may have thought was the sea. On the other hand, perhaps a full load exploding may account for the avalanche and extreme fragmentary wreckage.

                                    Comment

                                    • Creaking Door
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      Originally posted by Icare9 View Post
                                      ...as the wreckage you have doesn't react to the magnet, it shows it is a Wellington X with aluminium alloy structure...
                                      I have to admit that I didnt know there had been a change from steel to aluminium alloy for the airframe of the mark X Wellington and when I read it on certain websites I dismissed it as an error.

                                      Id assumed that the geodetics had always been alloy; so what parts of the airframe were changed from steel?

                                      Originally posted by Icare9 View Post
                                      ...confirmed by the engine found in the wreckage as being LN466...
                                      I wonder if that engine is still up there?
                                      WA$.

                                      Comment

                                      • Lyffe
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        Creaking Door,

                                        Re your post No 80, at 1645 on 2 Oct . Does this debrief refer to the raid launched on the 23rd, or is it another raid the following day (it refers to a raid on Turin on 24th)? Not trying to be clever, but there's a couple of things that don't hang together meteorologically.

                                        Brian

                                        Comment

                                        • Wellington285
                                          Rank 5 Registered User

                                          Hi Marco

                                          The geodetic from the prototype to the last built was alloy no steel was ever used in the forming of the geodetic. Just think of the extra weight it would add.
                                          Regards
                                          G.

                                          Comment

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