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Lancaster, err Wellington wreck

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    #21
    Hi Marco

    Forum member Fluffy posted the following a while ago on Lancaster part IDs.

    Notes on the Avro Lancaster (Posted by Fluffy):

    For ease of identification, each area of the Lancaster is designated a letter followed by the actual part number.
    B data and rigging
    BBH repairs
    C cockpit deck and fairings
    D- fuselage structure
    E cowlings and fireproof bulkheads
    F wing structure
    G tailplane and elevators
    H fin and rudders
    K - undercarriage main and tail
    N furnishings
    O power plant
    P fuel and oil
    Q piping services, hydraulic and pneumatic
    R flying and trim controls
    S instrument and panels
    T radio and radar
    U ancillary equipment
    V electrical systems
    W bomb gear
    X gun gear
    Z - sundries

    The actual part number prefix is not clear - records suggest it may be 683, but that needs confirmation. Surely someone out there must know!

    Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
    No, never found a Whitley..!

    But please, maybe these numbers referred to a different thing. Maybe, codenumbers for soemthing else.

    Which was the number of Lancaster, if 285 referred to Wellington?

    Comment


      #22
      Hi Elliot,


      number 7 has got this inscription, 08ISS B:

      as I can see from your list (thanks!), it seems to refer to "data and rigging", or not?

      Comment


        #23
        Could it be a Stirling (I know, I would be expected to say that!)? Some were lost on long range missions to bomb Turin. I can check dates etc when back home.

        DS (should be working!)
        Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

        Comment


          #24
          Thank you DocStirling,


          plase send me these datas and codenumbers, I am very interested.

          Unluckily, it seems very difficult to identify with certainty this wreck. My datas say "Lancaster", but many users, here, supposed to be a Wellington.

          Comment


            #25
            Hi Marco,

            Forgive me for being abrupt, but the parts you showed in this thread as well as the partnumber 285 all confirm this to be a Vickers Wellington. No doubt about about it.

            The typenumber of the Lancaster is 683.

            Sites such as lost bombers can be very deceptive and should not be used as a bible but more as a lead.

            Hope this helps
            Cees

            Comment


              #26
              Well, that might be the case if it was Lanc, but I really don't think it is!

              Wellingtons are much more interesting anyway! It's a good find


              Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
              Hi Elliot,


              number 7 has got this inscription, 08ISS B:

              as I can see from your list (thanks!), it seems to refer to "data and rigging", or not?

              Comment


                #27
                Hi Marco
                I have been looking for a decent photo to show you the part you have in your hand. I have a photo somewhere taken at a crash site in Scotland, but i cant find it. But i Have attached a poor quality photo of the joint taken at Hendon. This will might be of some help until i find a better photo
                Regards
                G.
                Found a better photo
                Attached Files
                Last edited by Wellington285; 29th September 2009, 18:17. Reason: add photo

                Comment


                  #28
                  Originally posted by Whitley_Project View Post
                  Hi Marco

                  Forum member Fluffy posted the following a while ago on Lancaster part IDs.

                  Notes on the Avro Lancaster (Posted by Fluffy):

                  For ease of identification, each area of the Lancaster is designated a letter followed by the actual part number.
                  B data and rigging
                  BBH repairs
                  C cockpit deck and fairings
                  D- fuselage structure
                  E cowlings and fireproof bulkheads
                  F wing structure
                  G tailplane and elevators
                  H fin and rudders
                  K - undercarriage main and tail
                  N furnishings
                  O power plant
                  P fuel and oil
                  Q piping services, hydraulic and pneumatic
                  R flying and trim controls
                  S instrument and panels
                  T radio and radar
                  U ancillary equipment
                  V electrical systems
                  W bomb gear
                  X gun gear
                  Z - sundries

                  The actual part number prefix is not clear - records suggest it may be 683, but that needs confirmation. Surely someone out there must know!
                  My part nos list does not include eng bearers or cowls they have Rolls nos usually starting with the letters pp, turrets and u/c components also have their own parts nos. An example of a Lanc part nos should look like 5R 1234 or 34F 123 but no more than 5 or 6 numbers after the letter. you can have up to 3 numbers before the letter as well.

                  I have a data base of 22,000 Lanc drawings so if you can get the part nos I might be able to ident it, but I don't recognise any of the numbers you have posted
                  A little knowledge is dangerous

                  Comment


                    #29
                    From the Military Gallery website caption to a print..
                    Encore by Steve Gibbs.

                    Wellington Mk X Bombers from 104 Squadron Royal Air Force based at Foggia in Italy make a night raid on the Messerschmitt factory at Steyr in Austria on 24/25th February 1944. The raid was by way of a follow-up to the USAAF daylight raid of earlier that day which left the factory badly damaged. Of the 36 Wellingtons that took off from Foggia, only these two found the target. Others, using captured Italian maps later found to be in error, were unable to navigate accurately. Six aircraft were lost in the Alps through flying into mountains where their captured maps indicated incorrect heights. The depicted aircraft, flown by Canadian Flg Off Fred Ashbaugh and navigated by the late Flg Off Dennis Wilburn, returned safely to Foggia after the successful mission

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Hmmm... Foggia in on the east coast of Italy, in the south.

                      If the Wellingtons were striking Austria, a direct path would take them over water for most of the journey (up the Adriatic), and only a little overland flight... and that in extreme eastern Italy.

                      Marco said he found the wreckage in the western Alps... that's a really severe deviation!!

                      Perhaps those 6 are not the right ones?
                      Germany, Austria and Italy are standing together in the middle of the pub, when Serbia bumps into Austria, and spills Austria's pint.

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Thank you all,


                        In effect I am a little schocked as you may imagine..!

                        Obviously, being a serious researched, if this plane was a real Wellington I will not hesitate to change at all my theory... The only strange thing is, how is it possible to loose two British bombers in the same place??

                        Anyway, I have to proof its identity, so please I would need more datas. If you have lists of numbers of Wellington bombers, datas concerning its possible identity as the ones I read before (the ones referring to Foggia and 1944, I mean) and whatever else, it would be extremely precious.
                        Having to write a possible essay, as you may imagine, I have to proof with certainty my theory. If I'd say "Ok, it is a Wellington" instead other kind of plane, I must admit no mistakes. I have to be sure.
                        And, to be sure, I need your sources, if possible. Lists, official archives, and whatever else..


                        The photos I saw before, especially the right one, were very interesting. May I have a copy of them, please?

                        So, THANKS for all your interest and efforts. I am schocked but.. I'll resist!

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
                          According to archives, this should be the wreck of Lancaster LM339. It crashed up there after striking Milano, during August, 1943. I would like to identify it for sure.
                          I think you are doing well with your research; as you originally said ‘it should be Lancaster LM339’.

                          The pieces of Wellington are much more compelling evidence.....indisputable in fact.

                          Why did you think it should be LM339?
                          WA$.

                          Comment


                            #33
                            Good morning, Creaking Door,


                            Thank you, in effect it was only a supposition..

                            I supposed this, because a local historian contacted in 2001 the RAF archives. They answered him that the only plane lost up there, and in the date he indicated (7/8 August 1943) was the Lancaster LM339. Lost after striking Milano, and so on.
                            Instead, I still don't know anything about this Wellington. Is it possible to understand more about the single plane from the list of inscription datas I wrote before?

                            M.

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
                              ...a local historian contacted in 2001 the RAF archives.....the only plane lost up there, and in the date he indicated (7/8 August 1943) was the Lancaster LM339.
                              Which begs the question how was the date of the crash (7/8 August 1943) known? Was there a local witness?

                              If the date is certain and the type is certain that will reduce the possibilities greatly. And I am sure there are those here who can give you that information.

                              What of the crew of the aircraft? A local burial or local record that will give you a name should lead to the aircraft identity.

                              From your description (snow 11 months of the year) the sit of the crash sounds fairly inaccessible. Was most the wreckage removed at some time for scrap?

                              Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
                              Is it possible to understand more about the single plane from the list of inscription datas I wrote before?
                              Unfortunately I am not the best person to ask but (other than to confirm aircraft type and possibly mark) I think it unlikely that an aircraft serial number will be marked on individual component parts.

                              Possibly the engines are still at (or near) the site and the engine numbers could be linked through documents to confirm an aircraft serial number? The engines (or parts of them even) could possibly confirm aircraft mark.

                              Good luck with your research; it is a big step to change your theory from Lancaster to Wellington but such changes of direction make for an interesting project.
                              Last edited by Creaking Door; 30th September 2009, 13:53.
                              WA$.

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Hi,


                                you right!, I have to remain open-minded until the ending proofs, about Lancaster, Wellington or whatever else.

                                First, the date of the crash (august 1943) was proved by many local inhabitants who heard the return of the bomber's formation from Milano - after some times, a single plane that crashed over Issime. Some months after, partisans came up there looking for weapons. They found some poor parts of the bodies, carried in the Issime cemetery.
                                After the war, British operators translated these bodies in the British Cemetery, in Milano. It is not far from here.
                                The problem is, no-one (RAF, historians..) know the real place of the crash site. So, even if it sounds incredible!, I cannot affirm that this is the Lancaster LM339 without more proofs. It surely was an Allied plane, because of the mg Browning .303 I found and you saw.

                                After the war, the most pare of the plane was dismantled and carried away with cableways and mules.
                                Actually, these parts and numbers are all the wreck proofs I have.

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  Buon giorno, Marco
                                  There are no losses from Nos 37, 40, 70 or 104 Squadrons that were flying Wellingtons lost between 6th and 9th August 1943 where aircrew are buried in Milan. So August 1943 seems to be the wrong date.
                                  To move this forward, what CWGC cemeteries are near the crash site? If it's only Milan, then a quick check shows that 37 Sqdn lost a Wellington 14/07/44; 142 Sqdn Wellington 13/07/44 and 70 Sqdn a Wellington 02/05/44. There was a Whitley lost from 10 Sqdn on 27/08/40, a Stirling from 149 Sqdn on 30/11/42 and 207 Sqdn on 08/12/42 and 61 Sqdn on 08/08/43 lost Lancasters.
                                  Now, which one crashed into your mountain, I have no idea.
                                  You might want to contact either the Brooklands Museum, RAF Museum at Hendon or a group working on Wellington wreckage such as the Midlands Aircraft Recovery Group (http://www.couplandbell.com/marg/index.htm) who might be able to tell if it is a Wellington or not. Obviously it was armed with at least one Browning machine gun, so not a transport aircraft. As you don't seem to have any metal panels, it is likely to be a fabric covered aircraft, putting it more likely as a Wellington or Whitley.
                                  Can't be any more help, you have some dates and some bombers, good luck!!

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
                                    ...the date of the crash (august 1943) was proved by many local inhabitants who heard the return of the bomber's formation from Milano...
                                    The date is critical. So, are the witness reports completely factual? The date of the raid on Milano is well documented and probably well remembered by local people but hearing many bombers pass over and then later finding a crashed bomber does not mean that it must have crashed on the same night. I do not doubt you or the witnesses but it is important.

                                    Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
                                    ...after some times, a single plane that crashed over Issime.
                                    So later, after the raid on Milano, a single aircraft was heard to fly over Issime and crash? The crash was actually heard?

                                    Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
                                    Some months after, partisans came up there looking for weapons. They found some poor parts of the bodies, carried in the Issime cemetery. After the war, British operators translated these bodies in the British Cemetery, in Milano. It is not far from here.
                                    Are there church or town records of the burials in Issime? Maybe names or identification numbers were recorded at the time? How many bodies were there; the crews of Lancaster and Wellington are different (usually).

                                    If the bodies were moved to the British Cemetery in Milano there may have been an effort to identify the bodies then. Somebody on this forum will be able to advise how to research that.

                                    Good luck.
                                    WA$.

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      Thank you both,


                                      In effect, I already looked for Issime's archives, but or they disappeared after the war (this zone was occupied by partisans of the Lys Brigade) or I still have not found them.
                                      Thank you Icare, I will soon contact these experts, maybe they'll discover more from my parts. And yes, the inhabitants heard the crash explosion: one of them, having a small house on the mountains, also lost his windows. It would be difficult to forget such an experience, especially for poor mountain people in this period. They simply didn't know planes or technological stuffs, I mean.

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
                                        And yes, the inhabitants heard the crash explosion: one of them, having a small house on the mountains, also lost his windows. It would be difficult to forget such an experience, especially for poor mountain people in this period.
                                        Very good evidence and not likely to be forgotten!

                                        I cannot fault your research so far.....keep going!
                                        WA$.

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          Originally posted by Marco S. View Post
                                          Hi,
                                          After the war, the most pare of the plane was dismantled and carried away with cableways and mules.
                                          Actually, these parts and numbers are all the wreck proofs I have.
                                          Just a thought, but if the area is very inaccessable, and most of the parts have been recovered, is it possible that parts from a number of sites were moved together? Therefore the site could be where the Lancaster crashed, but other parts have been moved to that location from other aircraft?

                                          Comment

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