Read the forum code of contact
By: - 27th March 2002 at 14:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: P-40 MTO operations
Anyone?
By: - 27th March 2002 at 15:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: P-40 MTO operations
Not quite what you are after perhaps, but after 'Piece of Cake' Derek Robinson wrote a book entitled 'A Good Clean Fight'. This features the remnants of Hornet Squadron flying P40s in the desert.
Not nearly as good as PoC, but then without the other Moggy, how could it be. But worth reading nevertheless.
Moggy.
By: - 27th March 2002 at 20:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: P-40 MTO operations
I agree with Moggy, another good book but it does lack the edge of Piece of Cake. Much of it is about the long range desert group. Perhaps the reason for less relevance being placed on the air war is that it is an area which has been the subject of only limited research.
An interesting addition to PII's collection would be one of Neville Duke's, the title of which I can't remember but it focusses on the Desert Air Force with 112 Squadron and operations in Italy.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 27th March 2002 at 21:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: P-40 MTO operations
Thanks guys, I'll look into that stuff. I take it no one wants to discuss this then?
By: - 27th March 2002 at 23:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: P-40 MTO operations
PII
Feel free to post away. It's an area I know little of and am always willing to learn.
kev35
By: - 28th March 2002 at 06:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: P-40 MTO operations
>Thanks guys, I'll look into that stuff. I take it no one
>wants to discuss this then?
PhantomII, please don't assume nobody wants to hear about this subject, even if no-one else has anything much to contribute. It's likely that, as with other little-known theatres (my pet one being the RIAF in Burma!), most people simply don't know much about your subject; but I think most of us would be willing to listen.
What about those stories out of your book which you promised, in your first post on this thread?
I have a couple of stories about Indians who flew Kittyhawks in North Africa. Nothing spectacular; just stories about what a few of the millions of people behind the scenes went through during WW2 ... any interest in those?
Regards,
Snoopy
By: - 28th March 2002 at 09:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: P-40 MTO operations
"PhantomII, ..... I think most of us would be willing to listen."
"I have a couple of stories about Indians who flew Kittyhawks in North Africa.... any interest in those?"
Yes to both of these from me.
Moggy
By: - 28th March 2002 at 10:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: P-40 MTO operations
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-03-02 AT 10:48 AM (GMT)]In last months Scale Modeller there was a whole pile of stuff about the P-40. Lots of piccies & scale drawings etc. There's also an association for the P-40. I've left the mag. at work, so I'll post the address, later.
Here's a question for you all; Which air force was the first to use the Sharks Teeth on the nose of the P-40?
Neilly
By: - 28th March 2002 at 13:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: P-40 MTO operations
Could it be China and Clare Chennaults Flying Tigers?
Regards
kev
By: - 28th March 2002 at 14:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: P-40 MTO operations
Actually, the first operator to employ the Shark's Mouth was not the Flying Tigers as is widely believed. It was the Royal Air Force and I believe 112 Squadron. I can't remember the exact squadron number. Anyway, 112 Squadron operated P-40's in the North African (MTO) theater. In the very early days after the formation of the Flying Tigers, the aircraft hadn't been painted with Shark Mouths. One of the Flying Tiger pilots saw a shark mouth painted on an RAF P-40 in the African desert (presumably 112 Squadron), on the cover of some magazine. He brought up the idea of Shark Mouths for their aircraft, probably because it just seemed like a neat idea. One reason, is widey believe, is that they did it because the Japanese are afraid of sharks.
As for the stories I have, I believe they center around the 325 FG (Fighter Group) was flew missions in North Africa and on up into southern Europe. I'm at school now and the book isn't with me, but later on, I'll have the stories up. I remember that in two different combat air patrols, the 325th's P-40's (P-40F's and later P-40L's) were ambushed with two to one odds, and they ended up destroying a large portion of enemy fighters while only losing one or two. Keep in mind that avg numbers for these two particular missions was about 40 Germans against 20-25 P-40's. Generall speaking about half of the German force was shot down while only one or two P-40's in each instance were downed. That is pretty impressive. Also keep in mind that this was against the Bf-109, and aircraft that I consider the P-40 to be capable of tackling.
That brings up my next point. The P-40 was one of the greatest fighters of the war, yet many times it never gets the credit it deserves. I suppose the same would apply to the Hurricane and to a lesser extent, the Wildcat. I've seen everything to indicate that a pilot in a well flown P-40 was a formidable opponent. The only true bad point of the aircraft was its somewhat sluggish high-altitude performance. This was somewhat remedied in later variants, though the P-40 was never ideal up high. One aircraft that I think the P-40 could dominate was the Zero, no matter which version. Take a P-40N and A6M5 for example. The Warhawk is much more durable, it is much faster, dives much quicker, and is better armed.
By: - 28th March 2002 at 19:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Kittyhawks in North Africa
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-03-02 AT 07:45 PM (GMT)]>
>"I have a couple of stories about Indians who flew
>Kittyhawks in North Africa.... any interest in those?"
>
>
>Yes to both of these from me.
>
OK, here's a few -- hope you like them:
The quotation below comes from published interviews with Squadron-Leader Mahinder Singh Pujji, DFC, one of (I think) the first batch of Indian pilots to serve in the European theatre during WW2. He arrived in the UK in late 1940; spent most of 1941 flying Hurricanes with 43 Squadron, RAF, on fighter sweeps over Occupied France; and then spent 1942 flying Kittyhawks in North Africa. He went back to India for the rest of the war, spending 1943 and part of 1944 on the North-West Frontier and eventually commanding No 4 Squadron, RIAF, in Burma.
He's still alive, bless him; and occasionally pops up in pictures on the UK MoD website.
North Africa was a much more primitive theatre than Europe, and Pujji found the food a particular turn-off; particularly as he wouldn't, for religious reasons, eat bully beef. But there was plenty of flying, and that kept him happy; though a lot of it was the down-and-dirty business of close air support. Around the time of the fall of Tobruk he was shot down. In his own words:
"I was in a Kittyhawk and … my instrument panel suddenly shattered. … Later I found that a bullet had gone through my overalls - the same one that had shattered the panel. I preserved that as a souvenir for many years.
"Then … suddenly the aeroplane started disintegrating. I immediately throttled back and landed … in the middle of the desert, right in the sand. Every aeroplane had water and these sort of things, so I sat on top of the aircraft, waiting. I knew to the north was the Mediterranean Sea - I couldn't walk that far. South, east and west there was nothing. There was no choice for me …
"I was there for about nine-ten hours, when I saw a dust column. As it happened, it was our soldiers … retreating. I was picked up."
As I say, nothing spectacular … just a one among multitudes of stories, covering those long periods of utter boredom, interspersed with short moments of stark terror, which make up the millions of individual experiences and memories of WW2.
For a rather more spectacular story, some of you might remember the one posted here by Jagan, some months ago, about how a batch of Indian pilots (on the Allied side, I hasten to add!) found themselves sharing a Christmas dinner with Erwin Rommel, no less. Makes a truly great story; so much so that I can't swear it isn't apocryphal …
For a much more detailed account of Kittyhawk operations in North Africa, Moggy and Phantom II, you might want to check out this site, if you don’t know it already:
http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/edwards.htm
It tells the story of James "Stocky" Edwards, a Canadian ace who also flew Kittyhawks in North Africa. He later flew Spitfires in Italy and Europe, and succeeded "Johnnie" Johnson as WingCo Flying of 127 Wing towards the end of the war.
Warning -- it's long-ish. Ran to 39 pages when I printed it - but I found them all eminently worth reading. Includes an uncaptioned photograph of a bearded pilot in North Africa. Can anyone tell, is that "Imshi" Mason? (I've read somewhere that he was "the only bearded pilot in the RAF" - presumably, whoever bestowed that title on him overlooked the handful of Sikhs who flew for the RAF!) Or could it be a Sikh pilot, such as Pujji? The helmet does look to me as though there might be a turban underneath.
I’m guessing the photo came from one of the other publications listed right at the end of this account as image sources. Can I make a special appeal, if anyone recognises that photograph, to please let me know? Many thanks in advance!
PII, look forward to the rest of your P-40 stories. Regards,
Snoopy
By: - 29th March 2002 at 09:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Kittyhawks in North Africa
Well done Phantom, you're spot on. In the latest edition of Flying Scale Models (got the right mag., this time!), there's a correction to some facts which books & publications get wrong. I'll copy out some of it, as it's quite interesting (not much time now, work or Mrs. Neilly get in the way of playtime!!).
Cheers,
Neilly
By: - 30th March 2002 at 00:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Warhawks in North Africa
Well, I'm having trouble finding those stories about the 325th. That book I have apparently doesn't have those exact stories. It has some others which I'll post later on, but I have to get the first two posted first. They aren't too long, they just have incredible outcomes that will make anyone place respect under the definition of P-40.
By: - 30th March 2002 at 09:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Warhawks in North Africa
I don't know the whole story but there was a superb painting (Nick Trudgian?)of P-40's attacking a lighthouse/flak tower somewhere on the North African coast. It really brought the whole scene to life.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 30th March 2002 at 19:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Warhawks in North Africa
Well, I found the stories. They aren't from the exact place I had originally seen them, but they are the same stories, so here they are, plus one extra one....the last one being famously called the Palm Sunday Massacre.
North Africa was the first place the Hawks and Eagles met, but it was not their last confrontation. On the Russian front Soviet P-40s faced the Luftwaffe's 109s and Focke Wulf 190s with considerable success. In Italy the 325 Fighter Group, known as the "Checker-Tailed Clan" because of the yellow and black checkerboards painted on their tails, scored two impressive victories over German 109s.
Story 1-
On 1 July 1943, 22 P-40s made a fighter sweep over southern Italy. Forty Bf-109s surprised the checker-tails, engaging them at moderate altitude where the P-40 performed best. After an intense dogfight the Germans lost half their force while only one P-40 failed to come back.
Story 2-
A similar event took place on the 30th of the same month in which 20 P-40s were bounced by thirty-five 109s. The Germans limped home after losing 21 of their own while the checker-tails came through with only one loss. The Germans lost 135 aircraft (ninety-six of which were 109s) to the pilots of the checkered-tail P-40s while shooting down only seventeen of the 325th.
Story 3-
Back in North Africa, the most successful engagement by Tomahawks was what has come to be known as the Palm Sunday Massacre. Just before sundown on Palm Sunday, 18 April 1943, P-40s on anti-transport patrol spotted over 60 Ju-52s escorted by 21 fighters off of Cape Bon, making their way to Sicily. Elements of the 57th and 324th as well as the British 92 Squadron intercepted. 11 Spitfires covered 46 P-40Fs as they pounced on the Axis formations, ripping them to shreds. The carnage ended with 59 Ju-52s and 16 fighters crashing into the sea or Tunisian soil for the loss of only 6 P-40s.
These stories are all from this article comparing the P-40 to the Zero. It is a very good read, and I hope that anyone who's got an interest in WWII aviation or the P-40 or just WWII in general will read it.
By: - 1st April 2002 at 06:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Warhawks in North Africa
No one is interested? I finally get the stories up and you guys abandon me. :)
By: - 1st April 2002 at 06:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Warhawks in North Africa
Don't panic Phantom I read your post & I'm sure others have, too.
Neilly
By: - 1st April 2002 at 17:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Warhawks in North Africa
I know, I was just kidding. I'll be waiting for some responses though. :)
By: - 1st April 2002 at 18:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Warhawks in North Africa
you mean I got the April Fool!
:'( Doh!!!
Neilly
By: - 1st April 2002 at 19:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Warhawks in North Africa
PII
Interesting stories. One question about the first two stories and the astonishing successes claimed by the P-40 group. On those two occasions the P-40 group (325th) claimed 41 109's out of a total of 76 engaged for the loss of only 2 P-40's. Were these claims verified at the time? If they were correct can you explain why P-40's did not achieve such success in other engagements? I would imagine that there was a certain amount of overclaiming. In the heat of a dogfight it was not uncommon for several pilots to claim the same victim as a kill, and for aircraft believed to have been destroyed to have managed to return to their bases with varying degrees of battle damage.
I'm not trying to denigrate anything these pilots have done, it just seems there must be some reason for the successes claimed on that day when the P-40 was in the process of being replaced by aircraft such as the Hurricane, P-47 and P-51.
The Palm Sunday massacre was a combat where P-40 was engaged mainly against unarmed transports with an escort which was largely engaged, I believe, against the Spitfire V's of 92 Squadron.
Regards,
kev35
Posts: 7,989
By: PhantomII - 25th March 2002 at 22:00
Anyone know any interesting stories about P-40 groups in the MTO during WWII? There is a book about P-40 aces in that theater that I might buy, and I also have a really good book on the P-40 with a few stories that I'll post if you like. Was hoping to talk about it. The MTO seems to be the forgotten theater of WWII, while in all actuality it was very important and some very fierce battles (both in the air and on the ground) were fought there. This was the theater in which Merline-powered Warhawks (P-40F & P-40L) were very prevalent.