NA Harvard Mk.1- Do any survive?

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24 years 2 months

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Just out of curiosity, I've been hunting around on Google etc for a while trying to find surviving examples of the Harvard Mk.1 or NA BC-1. With such large numbers of Harvards/Texans still around I thought that surely some of the earliest ones must still be around, but I can't find any record of a single survivor. Does anyone know of any?

Out of interest, what would it take to create a Mk.1? Would it be possible to back-date a later example to Mk.1 standard? I have to say I've always preferred the more curvy, graceful look of the earlier examples to the straighter lines of the later ones.

Original post

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19 years 9 months

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There are no recorded survivors of the Harvard Mark 1 or NA BC-1, the oldest and most similar "NA-16" family survivors are the NA-16 in Sweden, the NA-16 in South America or the CAC Wirraways in Australia.

The Harvard Mark I or NA BC-1 are quite different from the later T6-SNJ or other Harvard series of aircraft with the primary differences being:

1. Steel tube rear fuselage frame c/w monocoque structure & aluminium skin
2. Fabric side panels on both forward and rear fuselage c/w aluminium panels
3. straight trailing edge wing outer panels c/w swept forward trailing edge
4. round/flat bottomed rudder c/w triangular rudder.

many of these differences are shared with the CAC Wirraway.

There have been a number of hybriad "NA" aircraft restored in the USA in recent times including a Boomerang "lookalike", NA64's etc.

It would be possible to create a Harvard mark I in a similar vein but the most obvious changes would be the steel tube and fabric covered fuselage.

A Wirraway steel tube "rear fuselage" frame, lower monocoque and either Wirraway or T6 "forward" steel tube frame would seem to be the basic requirements.

Fuselage capstrips based on the Wirraway could be reproduced, along with new fabric side panels.

The straight trailing edge wing outer panels are like hens teeth and it would be simpler to stick to more readily available T6/SNJ Wing throughout as few would pick the difference.

The T6/SNJ tailplanes and elevators and fin should attach to the Wirraway rear fuselage without any modification, while a T6 triangular rudder would need to be rebuilt to form the rounded/flat bottom rudder of the Harvard mark I, or alternatively an SNJ-2 rudder could be obtained if they are readily available.

There are many other differences in the form of the Centre Section, cockpit furnishings and engine cowling however the above would seem to break the back of the problem?

Regards

Mark Pilkington

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 3,000

Hi Mark,

Thanks very much for your comprehensive reply, just the kind of thing I was hoping for. You confirm what I suspected- that the later examples have very little in common with the Harvard Mk.1! What does surprise me though is how you seem to be suggesting that the Wirriway is a very close match airframe-wise. I've always been lead to believe that CAC tinkered with the detail design and came up with an aircraft that had little in common with its US cousins. Could you possibly shed some more light on the similarities/ differences between the Wirriway and the US built examples?

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17 years 1 month

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I believe the Swedish one was recreated a few years ago starting with Wirraway remains .

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20 years

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OHOPE - yep you're right.

Whilst not a Harvard a very early SNJ is extant from a crash site and is under rebuild at present in Europe.

TT

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20 years

Posts: 2,249

Interesting topic about this well known trainer. Does someone have a picture with a Harvard MKI, NA BC-1 or such a rare NA-16? Would be great to see how the Harvard/T6 story started.

Greets,

Stieglitz

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19 years 9 months

Posts: 1,907

Ant,

here is some info on the parentage of the Wirraway in North American family tree previously posted on the KPAF board

the NA-16 was "Britishized" by Australia into the Wirraway with BA hardware on u bolts etc, but is essentially a licence built NA-16, The Nearest American Service A/c to the Wirraway was the BC-1, but with non-geared 1340.

regards

Mark Pilkington

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30th July 2004, 12:02
Mark_pilkington
Rank 3 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 76

NA-16- Wirraways, Harvards T6 and SNJ's

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Wirraways NA-16s, T6/SNJ & Harvards are all part of the successful North American NA-16 family of trainers.

The North American Trainer model numbers and Contract numbers become quite confusing, the following is based on the WARBIRDTECH series NA-16/AT-6/SNJ

The Wirraway is a direct NA-16 derivative with the distinctive all steel tube/fabric covered fuselage and straight trailing edge wing (The NA-32 and NA-33 were "contract" numbers as well as "model" numbers), The Contract numbers primarily related to the customer order, CAC received contract numbers 32 (actually an NA-16-1A with fixed gear and 2 blade prop), and contract number 33 (actually an NA-16-2k with retract gear and 3 blade prop and geared 1340).

The Harvard 1 is also an NA-16 derivative (NA-49 actually an NA-16-1E) while the Yale, NJ-1, SNJ-2 and BC-1 are themselves all seperate branch off derivatives of the NA-16 developments with various combinations of tapered wing, straight wing trailing edges, monocoque and steel tube rear fuselages.

The NA-16 design evolved further from the BC-1 (NA-26) and BT-9 (NA-29) family of T6 Ancestors with differing engine sizes, The NA-16 model references cease at the Contract number NA-56 which is an AN-16-4 and the BC-1A (NA-55), Yale (NA-57) and BT-14 (NA-5 at last started to bring together the monocoque fuselage and tapered wing and adoption of the ungeared P&W 1340 Wasp engine.

AT6 as contract number NA-59 commences the new T6/Harvard/SNJ family derivatives and leads on to the SNJ-2 as contract NA-65, Harvard 11 as contract number NA-66.

Finally the definative AT6A/SNJ-3 emerge as contract NA-77, with a multitude of contract numbers applying to the following T6-C,D,F and G, SNJ-4,5,6 and Harvard 111 and 1V models but are all effectively the same basic airframe structure of monocoque fuselage and tapered wing, hidden inside them all is the steel tube front fuselage frame derived from the basic NA-16.

regarding the posts above regarding Harvard II and IIA differences, the Harvard II (NA-66) was built by North American and "was effectively a BC-1A fitted with british equipment and circular control column"(T6 in Action - signal publications), whereas the Mk IIA were lend lease T6-C's (NA-8, explaining the US cockpit configurations.

The Harvard IIB were built in Canada by Noordyun and was similar to the NA built Harvard II above (but given no NA contract number

Member for

19 years 9 months

Posts: 1,907

Here are some pics of early NA-16 derivitaves related to the Harvard Mk 1

http://www.aerofiles.com/BC1-harvard.jpg

An early NA-16 form, fixed undercarriage, open cockpit -
the Granddaddy of T6/SNJ/Harvards

http://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/37553/2946811870101862646S600x600Q85.jpg

A USAAC BC-1 the US equivalent to the RAF Harvard I and RAAF Wirraway

http://www.aerofiles.com/noram-bc1.jpg

A USAAC BT-9, a fixed U/C version with smaller engine, unfortunately none survive today, this photo shows the fabric side panels to great detail, there is a monocoque belly skin along the underside of the rear fuselage on the NA-16's.

http://bt-13.org/BT-9_-1.jpg

The recreated NA-16 in Sweden using a Wirraway rear steel tube fuselage

http://web.telia.com/~u52220223/413Sk14FVM1.jpg

The original NA-16 surviving in South America (this is a fixed U/C version)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5692/fah21ua0.jpg

The 8th production, and oldest surviving Wirrawat A20-10 at the Australian National Aviation Museum

http://www.aarg.com.au/images/wirrawayCA-1lge.gif

A Bare Wirraway steel fuselage frame showing the engine mount fitted (no firewall in place) and the rear steel fuselage frame, missing its lower monocoque belly skin.

http://inlinethumb31.webshots.com/40158/1470331859071445460S600x600Q85.jpg

A photo source of various NA types

http://www.aerofiles.com/_noram.html

regards

Mark Pilkington

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16 years 3 months

Posts: 301

As mark has point out that there are no early BC-1/Mk.1/SNJ-1 that have been put on display or flying. But thats not to say that their aren't any that survive.

In my master list for Canada I have 7 Mk1s still out in the woods and I know of the location of a BC-1 in the States but the problem with these airframes are the location which make them very hard to go after.

As for the SNJ-1 I know of 2 crash sites on eof them I'm going to try to get to sometime in 2008.

Now there are a few BC-1A tat are out there also, there are three in the Mountains of Calf that could be recovered and rebuild to at least one flyere and one static using parts from later T-6s.

Its a shame that while we in the Warbird Community are big on hunting down the P-51 or F4U out in the wilds some of the rarer Trainers are out there and no one(well not everyone:D ) don't want to go hunting for them.

I know they aren't the big money ticket thing but it would be cool to have a BT-9/BT-8 and other late 20s early 30s trainers at Attack aircraft recovered.

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20 years

Posts: 2,249

Great to learn here! thanks for all the info and those pictures. I realy enjoyed to see those early Harvard variants!

Thanks all!

Stieglitz

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7 years 2 months

Posts: 2

Does anyone have any information on the Harvard Mk1 survivors in Canada mentioned by Scorpion89? Just curious as to if they were total write offs and why they haven't been recovered?

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20 years 1 month

Posts: 129

Does anyone have any information on the Harvard Mk1 survivors in Canada mentioned by Scorpion89? Just curious as to if they were total write offs and why they haven't been recovered?

There were only 30 Mk.Is serving in Canada, serials 1321 - 1350. From July 1939 with the last one wfu in July 1946 (1325). Hard to believe that this many would survive in the woods. Not impossible though.

Regards,

BennoT6

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19 years 9 months

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I'd imagine they are known crash sites where there might be a few remains

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7 years 2 months

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I'd imagine they are known crash sites where there might be a few remains

The only reason I ask is that I am currently exploring the possibility and feasibility of retrofitting a set of Harvard Mk 2 outer wing panels to a set of Harvard Mk 1 panels. Does anyone know if this has been done before? I see that there is currently an NA-50 replica for sale on Barnstormers that states that it has been modified from the later wing to the earlier straight trailing edge type and is six inches shorter than the standard Harvard wing panel. I would imagine that the earlier straight trailing edge wing panels also have 12 ribs rather than the 13 rib standard. Does anyone have any drawings that lay out the part numbers for the ribs on the early outer wing panels?

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12 years

Posts: 1,141

Here's some wonderful shots, taken at Randolph Field,Texas 1939 of BT-9s.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/North%20American%20BT-9/North%20American%20BT-9%20on%20Randolph%20Field%20flight%20line_1.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/North%20American%20BT-9/North%20American%20BT-9%20on%20Randolph%20Field%20flight%20line-2.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/North%20American%20BT-9/North%20American%20BT-9C%2047th%20School%20Sqd.%20Randolph%20Field-1.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/North%20American%20BT-9/North%20American%20BT-9C%2047th%20School%20Sqd.%20Randolph%20Field.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/North%20American%20BT-9/North%20American%20BT-9%20Randolph%20Field%20flight%20line.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/North%20American%20BT-9/North%20American%20BT-9%20on%20Randolph%20Field%20flight%20line-1.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/North%20American%20BT-9/North%20American%20BT-9%20over%20Randolph%20Field.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/North%20American%20BT-9/North%20American%20BT-9%20on%20Randolph%20Field%20flight%20line-3.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/North%20American%20BT-9/North%20American%20BT-9%20night%20flying%20training%20Randolph%20Field%20May39.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/North%20American%20BT-9/North%20American%20BT-9%20night%20flying%20training%20Randolph%20Field%20May39-2.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/North%20American%20BT-9/North%20American%20BT-9%20night%20flying%20training%20Randolph%20Field%20May39-1.jpg

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Certainly looks a lot different to the Randolf AFB I have visited but the actual layout is obviously the same. Had the nickname of the "Taj Mahal" from its early days and the tile covered water tank is still a feature

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15 years 6 months

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Also wondering if the BT.9 had the same design outer wing panels as the Wirraway - no washout. Lead to some nasty stall characteristics and perhaps why there are fixed LE slats.

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15 years 4 months

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Lovely photos. The BT9 wing underwent a series of modifications, initially no washout and no slat, then the slat was added, then the slat was replaced by washout. The nasty stall characteristics were noted by the A&AEE which is why slats were added to the Harvard Mk.Is after entering service. The design's problems were eventually cured by a longer fuselage and a reduction in wing sweep, creating the famous T-6.

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19 years 9 months

Posts: 1,907

The only reason I ask is that I am currently exploring the possibility and feasibility of retrofitting a set of Harvard Mk 2 outer wing panels to a set of Harvard Mk 1 panels. Does anyone know if this has been done before? I see that there is currently an NA-50 replica for sale on Barnstormers that states that it has been modified from the later wing to the earlier straight trailing edge type and is six inches shorter than the standard Harvard wing panel. I would imagine that the earlier straight trailing edge wing panels also have 12 ribs rather than the 13 rib standard. Does anyone have any drawings that lay out the part numbers for the ribs on the early outer wing panels?

Pat,

it would be a major task to modify the later T6 forward swept trailing edge wing outers to become straight trailing edge wings for a NA-50 replica or Harvard I replica, although Matt Denning in Queensland Australia has been building CAC Boomerang wing outers for years and they are effectively shortened/clipped wing versions of the straight trailing edge Wirraway / NA-16 wing.

There is only 1 surviving NA-16 example - in Boliva in South America, and no other known survivors of the various NA models with the early straight trailing edge wing such as the BT-9, BC-1, NJ-1 and Harvard I etc.

But there are a healthy number of CAC Wirraways surviving with the NA-16 wing and a smaller number of CAC Boomerangs with the modified version and I have no doubt Matt could punch out a set of Wirraway/Harvard mk I straight trailing edge wing outers based on his production capabilities of Boomerang wing outers.

The drawings of the CAC Wirraway wings do exist

regards

Mark Pilkington

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14 years 5 months

Posts: 3,447

I would be extremely wary of going back to the earliest of the breed. Recreating a non-washed-out, straight-winged, short-tailed, round-ruddered NA trainer.would mean reversing all the amends made to make a frankly dangerous aeroplane acceptable. There is a story in there, and as is often the case it's not the one told by the manufacturer.

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19 years 9 months

Posts: 1,907

I would be extremely wary of going back to the earliest of the breed. Recreating a non-washed-out, straight-winged, short-tailed, round-ruddered NA trainer.would mean reversing all the amends made to make a frankly dangerous aeroplane acceptable. There is a story in there, and as is often the case it's not the one told by the manufacturer.

We built and flew 750 2 deg washed-out, straight-winged, short-tailed, round-ruddered CAC Wirraway licence built NA trainers down under and coped with the wing stall characteristics, and have a number still flying today, although one restored example did succumb to those un-forgiving wing stall characteristics when the pilot was performing steep turns at an Airshow, but the same characteristics were also in the CAC Boomerang and CAC Ceres and those also flew successfully, with restored examples flying today, the characteristics were improved through the fitting of leading edge wedges to the centre-section as well as wing slats on the Ceres.

[ATTACH=JSON]{"alt":"Click image for larger version Name:\tWirraway_A20_109a.jpg Views:\t0 Size:\t55.5 KB ID:\t3865146","data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"3865146","data-size":"medium"}[/ATTACH]

However If someone did want to recreate a Harvard I with a full steel tube (short) fuselage, and with its squared rather than rounded or triangular rudder, I personally would avoid the costs and issues with building new examples of the straight trailing edge wing and simply use the more modern T6/SNJ tapered wing, inclusive of its Centre-section and simply put round wing tips on it, what ever you build is only ever going to be a reproduction, not a restored and authentic original.

In fact the first post war airworthy restoration of a Boomerang by Guido Zuccoli flew with a clipped T-6 tapered wing until the first new straight trailing edge Boomerang wings were built Matt Denning.

Here is the description of the Wirraway wing from the Overhaul and Repair Manual

l. Description. ' The wing assembly consists essentially of a centre section, two outer panels, two wing tips, two ailerons, two aileron booster tabs and five flap panels. The centre section. is of constant chord design and is set at a 2 angle of incidence. Each outer panel is twisted 2', thus resulting in, an angle of 0'at the tips, The outer panels have a sweep back of 12 5' at their leading edges and have, relative to the centre section, a dihedral angle of 5' measured along the upper surface. The entire trailing edge of the wing is straight.

2. Centre Section. The wing centre section is of aluminium alloy construction consisting of two spars with channel type flanges and flat sheet webs, flanged channel type intermediate ribs between the spars, two end plates and a corrugated sheet riveted to the spar flanges and intermediate ribs between the spars at the top. The entire assembly is covered with aluminium alloy sheet, with access doors and openings provided in the upper surface to accommodate the fuel co*k extension shaft, aileron control cables, flap and hydraulic brake pipes, fuel tank filler necks, . A large door, extending the whole length of the centre section between the spars,- gives access to the fuel tanks. When bolted into position between the outer wing panels this - door forms an integral part of the wing centre

section. Incorporated in the assembly of this fuel tank cover is the manual bomb release mechanism. The removal of this cover gives access to both fuel tanks. The landing gear supports and lock-pin mechanisms are installed at the outboard ends of the centre section _on ,the front spar. Wheel wells are provided in the leading edge to accommodate the landing gear wheels in the fully retracted position. On the rear bottom surface of the centre section are installed electro-magnetic -bomb release mechanisms.

3. Outer Panels. A twist of 2' (wash-out) is incorporated in each outer wing panel, which is of aluminium alloy construction throughout. The basic construction of each- outer panel consists of a single spar, pressed flanged ribs and aluminium alloy sheet covering. Access doors are provided on the upper and lower surfaces to facilitate inspection, servicing, replacement, - The outer -panels are attached to the centre section by means of eight (8) bolts through angles riveted to end plates of the centre section and screwing in-o anchor nuts on the spar of the outer panel, also by numerous bolts through bolt angles which are riveted to the centre section and outer panels about their respective root profiles. Two universal type bomb carriers are built into each wing panel. These carriers are so arranged that the-.slip and .electro-magnetic releases are- entirely within the wing. The necessary bomb steadies and rails for the fusing units are incorporated as part of the wing assembly.

For Pat's inquiry above I have added a photo of the Wirraway wing outer panel and the repair drawing of the wing from the manual, showing the straight trailing edge in common with the NA-16 and Harvard I, and the 13 rib positions.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

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