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  • David Layne
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Apr 2006
    • 553

    Interesting photo on e bay

    Can anyone tell me the history behind this photograph of a Hurricane?

    http://cgi.ebay.de/Englisches-Jagd-F...QQcmdZViewItem
    Researching my father at 50 Squadron, 97 Squadron, Dulug Luft, Stalag Luft VI, Stalag 357 and Stalag Luft III.

    http://wallyswar.wordpress.com/
  • Rogier
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Apr 2005
    • 148

    #2
    P3577? Then a Mk 1, built at Langley. P2577? Then a Mk 1, built by Gloster Aircraft. Not sure if that is a fabric-covered wing or metal-covered.
    Last edited by Rogier; 30th May 2007, 00:56.
    "Never make a low approach on a cold front"

    Spitfires knnen nicht sowohl im Norden als auch im Sden gleichzeitig sein

    Comment

    • Newforest
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Apr 2005
      • 8817

      #3
      Looks like a good candidiate for a caption contest!
      http://www.flightmemory.com/ I have been round the world 11.83 times!

      Comment

      • 25deg south
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Mar 2006
        • 660

        #4
        "NV" could well be 79 Sqn.( B Flight of 32 Sqn according to John Rawlings.)
        They went to France in May 1940 .
        It could well have been abandoned there during the retreat.

        Comment

        • paulmcmillan
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2000
          • 2618

          #5
          P2577 was lost in France in May 1940. Air Britain lists it as with 615 Sqn at the time
          Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

          Comment

          • Rogier
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Apr 2005
            • 148

            #6
            If

            http://www.battleofbritain.net/0042.html

            is to be believed: P3577 of 303 Sqn Northolt was lost in the Thames estuary on Sept. 15 1940. Then P2577 looks the best candidate.

            Have we got a fabric or aluminum-wing variant here?
            "Never make a low approach on a cold front"

            Spitfires knnen nicht sowohl im Norden als auch im Sden gleichzeitig sein

            Comment

            • wieesso
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Aug 2006
              • 1852

              #7
              Hurricane I P2577 of 615 Sqn RAF (P/O Brian B Toung wounded)
              16. May 1940
              http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1420

              Comment

              • paulmcmillan
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2000
                • 2618

                #8
                Peter Cornwell over on TOCH has abetter solution that 'fits'

                The aircraft in question is probably P2537 'Lost in France 1940' by No. 79 Squadron.

                "Cull & Franks would both have us believe this was P/O Appleton's aircraft lost on May 14, 1940, but I doubt this even without the evidence of the photograph."


                I have zoomed in to picture and I think I can see the beginings of a 3 instead of a 7 for the 4 digit...

                Paul
                Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

                Comment

                • JDK
                  JDK
                  Mr Tweed
                  • Sep 2003
                  • 8443

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Rogier View Post
                  Have we got a fabric or aluminum-wing variant here?
                  IIRC, as soon as possible, fabric winged Hurris had the metal wing fitted in substitution.

                  From the picture, the absence of 'fabric' type holes in the wing structure (unlike the aileron) indicate it's probably a metal wing. It's hard to be certain, but there's no evidence of the fabric construction, and you can't see the gun access hatches, which were different, so I'd suggest it's most likely metal.
                  James K

                  Looking and thinking...
                  Vintage Aero Writer: Blog & Details

                  Comment

                  • 25deg south
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Mar 2006
                    • 660

                    #10
                    FWIW 615 appear to have used the code KW during period in question -tending perhaps to support the 79 Sqn case.
                    Its not conclusive ,as codes were often swopped and changed to create confusion to the opposition's intelligence efforts.

                    Comment

                    • northeagle
                      http://norav.50megs.com
                      • Jun 2006
                      • 244

                      #11
                      I have zoomed in to picture and I think I can see the beginings of a 3 instead of a 7 for the 4 digit.
                      I zoomed in as well, I would say that's a 7. 3s during this period tended to be rounded not straight topped. Also the angle of the downstroke looks more like a 7 and it goes down past the half where I would expect to see the middle stroke of the 3.
                      615 were coded KW and I have seen no evidence on 615 or 607 Squadrons to suggest that the codes were changed. Photo is KV a 79 Squadron aircraft. That's not to say it wasn't with another squadron. With the confusion of the time, certainly the two squadrons above, used Hurricanes from other squadrons that for one reason or another had been left on their airfield.

                      Best Wishes.
                      Robert.

                      Comment

                      • vultee35
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 1697

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Newforest View Post
                        Looks like a good candidiate for a caption contest!
                        I think it was one of those self build planes where you get a couple of parts each week in a magazine ( first issue only 95p ), but I'm guessing he missed a few issues!

                        Great photo though.

                        Steve
                        Stephen Carr

                        Only dead fish swim with the stream.

                        See my Websites Here

                        Comment

                        • paulmcmillan
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 2618

                          #13
                          "I would say that's a 7. 3s during this period tended to be rounded not straight topped"

                          Robert
                          I have spent most of the evening looking for pictures of early 1940 Hurricane's with 3 in their serials. The only one I could see (in Aircraft for the few) has it 3 as a straight top, NOT rounded.. With an acute angle going down greater than the angle for a 7. I think I can see this acute angle on a zoom of the picture. I am SURE the angles off the last 2 digits are different ...

                          Regards

                          Paul
                          Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

                          Comment

                          • Rogier
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Apr 2005
                            • 148

                            #14
                            Don't forget parallax - viewer is not at right angles to the object. Also the last '7' is on white/light grey - that doesn't help.

                            Experiment by printing out the numbers on a sheet of paper then try looking at the tops of the numbers, also letters like 'e' and 'o', as you push and pull the sides of the sheet. To my aged eyes, there is a flattening out of the top curves as the angle increases.
                            "Never make a low approach on a cold front"

                            Spitfires knnen nicht sowohl im Norden als auch im Sden gleichzeitig sein

                            Comment

                            • paulmcmillan
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2000
                              • 2618

                              #15
                              I have played about with the image on Picasa2 and I am now 99.99% sure that erver that the forth digit is NOT a 7 but a Square 3

                              The appears to be a definate slight downward line on the left hand side of the top edge and the acute angle on the right is different from the 4th and 5th digits

                              I also straightened the image

                              Paul
                              Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

                              Comment

                              • Rogier
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Apr 2005
                                • 148

                                #16
                                The end of P2577 is worth telling even if it is not the subject of the photograph on e-bay.

                                I thank my Belgium contact for the following:

                                P.O. Young's Hurricane crashed at Essene, 15 miles S.W. of Brussels. He was shot down by British troops. Young baled out, and was shot again whilst hanging from his parachute. When the troops ran to "capture" their victim, they realised they were terribly wrong. Young had several bullet wounds and the soldiers shouted "My god, he's British". Young replied: "No, in fact I'm South-African".

                                He was evacuated to the UK and hospitalised, and passed away a few years ago as a AVM.

                                I now look forward to hearing about the demise of P2537.
                                "Never make a low approach on a cold front"

                                Spitfires knnen nicht sowohl im Norden als auch im Sden gleichzeitig sein

                                Comment

                                • northeagle
                                  http://norav.50megs.com
                                  • Jun 2006
                                  • 244

                                  #17
                                  Ok so P 2577 is wiped. Not sure what happened to P 2537, it appears to be missing. However, Paul was making a claim for the fourth digit to be a 3, therefore: P 2573. This aircraft was on 607 Squadron as AF-A and was flown by P/O Peter Dixon on May 11. After running out of fuel, he landed in a field near Tirlemont. While searching for petrol AF-A was destroyed in a bombing attack. Paul's flat topped 3 must be a 7 after all.
                                  Markings on this Hurricane (photo) show it was of 79 Squadron. It also carries the yellow around the fuselage roundel. Most of the original Hurricanes in France did not have this. However, those squadrons that reinforced the original force did: 79 was one of these squadrons.

                                  Best Wishes.
                                  Robert.

                                  Comment

                                  • Alex Smart
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 111

                                    #18
                                    79 Sqn - P2537

                                    Hello Rogier,

                                    From Air Brit book P1000-R9999.

                                    P2537 - 79 - Lost in France 5/40.

                                    But I also have it that P2537 was lost with 79 Sqn when on the 14th May 40, P/O. Appleton was S/D in it and Killed.

                                    There was also P3277 that was "Lost in France 5/40 with the CFF.But I think that this was lost with 17 Sqn and Sqn/Ldr G.C.Tomlinson who force landed S of Brussels on the 17th May 40 .Also in N2547 on the 11th May 40 .

                                    Alex
                                    Last edited by Alex Smart; 2nd June 2007, 16:31.

                                    Comment

                                    • paulmcmillan
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jan 2000
                                      • 2618

                                      #19
                                      P2537 was with 79 Sqn

                                      Both Franks (FCL) and Cull (12 Days in May) have Appleton killed in this aircraft on 14th May 40.

                                      Peter Cornwell (on TOCH) who did the Day by Day losses in both Battle of Britain Then and Now and also the follow up books on the Blitz has for a number of years been doing investigation and research on all Battle of France Losses (all nations) for a new book (which is planned to be published late 2007)

                                      He says " Cull & Franks would both have us believe this was P/O Appleton's aircraft lost on May 14, 1940, but I doubt this even without the evidence of the photograph.

                                      So he DOUBTED Appleton was on this aircraft P2537 even before the 'evidence' of the photograph. When his reseach is published it will probabbly reveal Appleton was on another aircraft

                                      What has singulary been failed to notice by ANYONE is that BOTH the "recorded" history of P2537 and P2577 have involved total losses of the aircraft concerned (bailed out and killed) so how can the photograph be explained!

                                      Paul
                                      Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

                                      Comment

                                      • Alex Smart
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 111

                                        #20
                                        Hurricane wreckage

                                        Hello Paul,

                                        Thank you for your reply .

                                        Yes I though of those bail out events and dead pilots too.

                                        In reply to which I can only offer the following from what the photo tells me.

                                        The left side is not visible but can be seen through from the right side around the Cockpit area. So there must have been quite a lot of damage to that side of the aircraft, perhaps from a pilotless landing? Also the Tail section has no Fin or Rudder may have been lost in an overturned crash.
                                        The aircraft may well have been righted and fixed on undercart after a crash so as to provide easy access for dismantleing of the wreckage.

                                        All maybees and mights I know but at this time what else have we ?

                                        All the best
                                        Alex

                                        Comment

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