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By: - 24th August 2006 at 12:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Perhaps
Howard Frizelle Burton
CO 616 Sep 3 1940 to Sep 1941
Wing leader 239 (kittyhawk) Wing - Middle East
Passenger in a Hudson returning to UK lost over Bay of Biscay.
(MoBofB kenneth G. Wynn)
By: - 24th August 2006 at 12:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
a somewhat elderly and heavily mustachioed flight lieutenant.
Burton would have been 24.
Would that have been considered elderly in those desperate times.
Moggy
By: - 24th August 2006 at 13:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Billy Burton was reputedly a great pilot but my photos show no moustache at Tangmere. The records I have found so far say the new flight commanders were Charles Bush and Denis Crowley-Milling with 610 Squadron and Lt Charles Arthur with 145 Squadron.
By: - 25th August 2006 at 19:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Johnnie Johnson talks of the "aerobatic king of Tangmere" who could take a Spitifire II through three and a half climbing rolls straight of the deck He described him as "our new Flight Commander, a somewhat elderly and heavily mustachioed flight lieutenant." (616 Squadron, Tangmere February-March 1941) Who was that man and what became of him? The three upward Charlies and half loop was apparently one more than Bader or anyone else could achieve.
I heard the story about this on a program about Bader years ago. Apparently everybody at Tangmere had tried to do the manoeuvre (3 Charlie’s were the target that everybody was trying to reach) and Bader had said was impossible in a Spitfire II (he'd done two and a half). That was until this guy turned up and did it. At that point Bader got a hump on and ordered the pilots to stop trying to do the manoeuvre.
By: - 25th August 2006 at 20:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Flt Lt "Buck" Casson
I heard the story about this on a program about Bader years ago. Apparently everybody at Tangmere had tried to do the manoeuvre (3 Charlie’s were the target that everybody was trying to reach) and Bader had said was impossible in a Spitfire II (he'd done two and a half). That was until this guy turned up and did it. At that point Bader got a hump on and ordered the pilots to stop trying to do the manoeuvre.
Sounds very much as if our man was Flt Lt L H "Buck" Casson, DFC, of 616 Squadron. Andy Saunders
By: - 25th August 2006 at 23:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sounds very much as if our man was Flt Lt L H "Buck" Casson, DFC, of 616 Squadron. Andy Saunders
Not the same guy that's been mentioned on the other Bader thread thats on the go at the minute :diablo:
By: - 26th August 2006 at 00:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the gentleman concerned might have been Flt Lt Colin Macfie who was shot down over france 5/7/41.
He was mentioned in an autobiography I read years ago and described as ''an elderly and rather pedantic officer'' or similar.
If memory serves ,when his aircraft was hit he rolled inverted and descended inverted to near the ground and then rolled upright to belly land safely and captivity.
Sorry cannot remember which book he was mentioned in !!
By: - 26th August 2006 at 00:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Colin Macfie was mentioned (I think) in Flying Start by Hugh Dundas?
He didn't look old though...and no 'tache... :)
By: - 26th August 2006 at 00:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Age is of course relative!!!
A fair number of wartime pilots were young (19 ish)
A Flt Lt of (say) 30 would seem ancient.
But i am fairly sure Colin Macfie was mentioned elswhere!! ;)
By: - 26th August 2006 at 02:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the gentleman concerned might have been Flt Lt Colin Macfie who was shot down over france 5/7/41.
Thank you and well done Bazv, you're absolutely right! - it was further into "Wing Leader" than I had looked - after the forced landing you refer to Macfie escaped and eventually walked most of the way home!
By: - 26th August 2006 at 03:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What was the record for the most upward rolls at high speed.I,ve heard rumours of 6 here in Australia.
By: - 26th August 2006 at 05:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm hitting my book's here, oldish hey, the young lad's did think Bader was old too, Our own in Oz, Killer Caldwell a grandpa!
I'm wondering if it might be one of the Cranwell boy's that passed though in Bader's time, back in the late 1920's, early 30's maybe.
When Bader was with No. 23 Squadron, based at Kenley 1930/31, he flew the Gloster Gamecock, in the Aerobatic's team for the combined aerobatics.
At the 31 Hendon pageant, C Flight Commander, Harry Day, lead the team, Bader his number two, and Geoffrey Stephenson his number three.
It was said to have been a wonderful success there display, and Bader proved just how good he could be as a pilot, without showing off, Geoffrey sound's like he great pilot too, not forgetting Hey Hey it's Harry Day Ex WW1 vet, who Bader met later of course as a POW as well.
Of course a bit later on Monday morning 14th December, 1931, off he goe's on a joy flight to do some aerobatic's in a Bristol Bulldog to blow the cobweb's out, see's Pilot's Phillips and Richardson below him in Bulldog's and he tagged along to Woodley Aerodrome.
Later got dared to do some flying over the field, lost his rag, forgot the Bully was not a Gamecock, and it next fell out of the sky when he tried to slow roll it over the field.
BANG! we have no leg's Bader, but if you are bored, check out Bader's Sport's Career, both with leg's, and without!! it quiet amazing!
I'll check the RAF 1935 movie once again I have, as there's a lot of close up's of the lad's in their Fury's(who put on a MAD Fury display),
I have picked some out already that made it to 39/40, but I'll hit various book's here too, for the Tang Spitfire pilot.
I'm sure I have heard/read that story before, and Bader was like that, If he could not do it, he would try real hard not to let anyone else do it to beat him!
Ciao I'm of to the book's.
By: - 26th August 2006 at 06:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Beetle,glad I wasn't mis remembering.
I had forgotten he was named in Wing Leader,but then I havent read it since 19 oatcake,it was one of the first 'memoirs' i read along with ''the big show'' by Pierre Clostermann which I also thought was an excellent book.
Does anybody know more details about Colin Macfie?It would be interesting to find out more about him.
By: - 26th August 2006 at 08:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes...the very same!
Not the same guy that's been mentioned on the other Bader thread thats on the go at the minute :diablo:
Yes, the same man! By the way....I have photos of McFie and cannot imagine it to be him. My money is on "Buck" Casson. Andy Saunders
By: - 26th August 2006 at 11:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hope this helps a little. Standing far right, McFie: next to him, Buck Casson.
Photo taken Schubin POW camp c 1942.
By: - 26th August 2006 at 16:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Are the Buck's on Buck!
Well after a heavy search of my book's and web,
Yes, I would say Wing Commander Lionel " Buck " Harwood Casson, DFC AFC.
Jan 6 1915-October 8 th 2003(RIPmate)
He would fit the bill perhap's, but he was only about 26 in 41, and did not seem to fit aerobatic wise, with his then flying experience, unless he was just one of those rare pilot's who just a wiz in the cockpit, almost naturally, as if born there.
He was also shot down not that longer after Bader.
Here's a Link for the people who wanted to know about the man himself(hope the Buggger work's), Squadron Leader Buck Casson Daily telegraph Obit http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/15/db1501.xml
I thought he was a bit youngish myself, but some look older then their time, and then I had a brain wave, that maybe it was someone like Wing Commander George " Grumpy " Unwin DSO DFM., but he don't seem to fit!
Ciao for now it been fun, Thank's guy's......... P.S. our Aussie Tony Gaze :cool: was Bader's wing man, many time's too around this time!, maybe we should ask him :eek: .
By: - 26th August 2006 at 17:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
cool the link work's " Gut Nacht " all must crash Ciao
By: - 27th August 2006 at 19:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
After digging out my old yellowed copy of Wing Leader and reading again one specific page about the aerobatic king i realise that i had misinterpreted what JJ actually meant.
I now agree it cannot be Colin Mcfie(googling made him 21 ish)
However for some reason JJ does not name the pilot concerned.... why ??
to quote from the book...
'There was posted to the squadron a somewhat elderly , pedantic and heavily moustachioed F/L who,although possessing no combat experience,proved to be an aerobatic pilot of exceptional ability'......
20 odd pages later he describes the shooting down of this pilot and finishes the paragraph.....
'This remarkable character returned on foot via Spain and Gib.'
Was Buck Casson an escaper/evader ?? I didnt think so but if it wasnt him ,who was it and why was JJ reluctant to name him.
By: - 27th August 2006 at 21:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Go back a few lines from the second quote in Wing Leader, Basv. JEJ names Macfie there -maybe because of his "pedantic" nature he gave the impression of age?
By: - 27th August 2006 at 22:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Beetle
No i think it was just the way that particular page was laid out,when i originally read it i assumed the next paragraph was still about Colin Mcfie,but i read it carefully today and now think differently.Also the photo posted by Northeagle shows Mcfie and Casson TOGETHER in pow camp.
That may rule out both men because JJ appeared to say that the aerobatic king evaded and walked out through Spain and Gib.
Did Casson or Mcfie evade/escape ?? If they did not then it cannot be either of them.Assuming of course that JJ is accurate in his narrative.
Cheers Baz
Posts: 52
By: Beetle2 - 24th August 2006 at 10:00
Johnnie Johnson talks of the "aerobatic king of Tangmere" who could take a Spitifire II through three and a half climbing rolls straight off the deck He described him as "our new Flight Commander, a somewhat elderly and heavily mustachioed flight lieutenant." (616 Squadron, Tangmere February-March 1941) Who was that man and what became of him? The three upward Charlies and half loop was apparently one more than Bader or anyone else could achieve.