Read the forum code of contact
By: - 6th October 2002 at 19:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-10-02 AT 07:15 PM (GMT)]Hi Kev
According to Bomber Command Losses, The whole crew perished in the crash. They were:
Sgt.L.W.Morrison
Sgt.C.N.Caldicott
Sgt.J.A.Duffield (RCAF)
Sgt.A.M.Cormack
Sgt.E.Dyson
Sgt.W.Y.Emerslund (RCAF)
Sgt.T.H.Bevan
They are all buried in the Frederikshavn Cemetery, Denmark.
No details of cause of crash. The Lancaster came down at 02.00hrs at Gronhoj, 15kms SW of Viberg. The aircraft exploded on impact.
61 Sqd Lancaster RS 724, on the same raid, was damaged by flak & then engaged by 2 nightfighters. However the crew managed to bring her back, to crash land at Wittering. Despite most of the crew being injured, they all survived.
Hope this is of use to you.
Cheers,
Neilly
By: - 6th October 2002 at 19:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
Nice one Neilly, you beat me to it! Though my source has a couple of the names marginally different-
j E Duffield, and t R Bevan.
By: - 6th October 2002 at 19:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
Thanks guys.
Really on the ball as usual. It never ceases to amaze me just how wonderful a resource this forum can be.
Probably a daft question Neilly, but are the crews listed in rder of their position in the aircraft?
Thanks again guys, really appreciate it.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 6th October 2002 at 20:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
Hi Kev,
The Bomber Command Losses always start with the Pilot & I've listed them as they are in the book.
Neilly
By: - 12th October 2002 at 20:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
Gentlemen,
thanks for the information so far. I've recently come into contact with the widow of Sgt. Cormack, a wonderful woman well into her eighties who never remarried, he was the love of her life. She visited his grave in Denmark many years ago and spoke to me at length about him this afternoon. It's the first time I've really spoken to a 'war widow' and she gives a new and interesting perspective into aircrew life.
I would like to beg the indulgence of the forum once more on her behalf. As I said previously, she visited her husband's grave in Denmark many years ago. Unfortunately, she did not have the foresight to take a camera. So, does anyone know how I might obtain a photo of Sgt. Cormack's grave?
Regards,
kev35
By: - 13th October 2002 at 08:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
...erm, go to Denmark and take one?! ;-)
By: - 13th October 2002 at 11:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
kev try this
http://www.cwgc.org.uk/detailed.asp?casualty=22712277
hope this helps
Dezz
By: - 13th October 2002 at 13:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
What a superb link!
By: - 13th October 2002 at 13:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 13-10-02 AT 01:29 PM (GMT)]thanks lancman. i found the site while looking for info on a chap, who turned out to be a airgunner on a wellington buried in the same graveyard, as my girlfriends nan, sound's strange but we were both drawn to it and whenever i go there i put something on it.
sorry for rambeling
Dezz
By: - 13th October 2002 at 18:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
Dezz,
thanks for that. I already had that information as I use the CWGC website a lot, though mainly for First World War research. That's a lovely story about the Wellington gunner, it's strange how something like that can draw you in. The research for Mrs. Cormack was initially for her but now I'm really intrigued by and interested in Sgt. Cormack. I find you can learn so much from speaking to people like Mrs. Cormack who went on to have a fascinating career of her own in midwifery from 1943 onwards.
Thanks again.
kev35
By: - 16th October 2002 at 19:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
hi Guys from a newbie to writing but a long time lurker - I have an interest in 61 squadron as a cousin flew a 34 op tour as navigator from August '44 to April '45. Just in case anyone is confused - the picture on the CWGC site is not the actual grave photo but a "standard" one used on that commemoration page. Whilst I am on line I am researching 125 Airfield/Wing 1943-1945, for a family project as my Dad was in the ground echelon advance party, and would be grateful if anybody has any information on it's squadrons (a full list can be supplied if necessary. I already hold most of it's ORB (Jan '44 - July '45) and photo's and histories of it's units - but I am always after more !! cheers - Allan
By: - 16th October 2002 at 19:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
Allan,
welcome to the forum. If you don't mind me asking can you tell me why your cousin did 34 ops rather than the usual tour of 30?
Regards,
kev35
By: - 19th October 2002 at 17:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Avro Lancaster R5679
hi Kev
I have his whole log book on CD - includes training pre his tour and after. He actually did 33 Ops - for some reason not stated 6 Dec 1944 has a line through it after entering the date, aircraft letter W and pilot. I had always been told 34 ops and it wasn't until you asked that I looked again at the actual pages - still 33 is more than enough !!!
His usual Lanc was W and his pilot was Arawyn (Wyn) Davies - his first Op 9 Aug '44 was Chattellerault (Fuel dump) and his last on 4 April '45 was Nordhausen. He had 60 hours 10 mins on daylight ops and 139 on night-time ops. No reason given in the book for 33 ops - maybe another crew member was a few light and they all flew together on the "extra" ops to finish together, the crew is slightly different on the two ops mentioned below for instance. Actual service in 61 squadron is given as 4/8/44 - 28/4/45 - I have crew photo's - unfortunately he died in 1989 and my father (his actual direct cousin) married his widow in 1991. They were both born in 1921 and dad is 81 next month - my step-mum was 81 in Sept. By the way he flew two ops in one of the very few Lancs LL843 to do over 100 ops (Russelsheim 12/13 Aug '44 and Dresden 13/14 Feb '45) and is mentioned in the ops list (by crew) of a book by Norman Franks - cheers - Allan.
p.s. if I list 125 Wing squadrons can anyone help with photo's ? most, except 184 (Hurricane IV's), 80 and 274 (Tempest V) were Spit IX's or XIV's. I have lots, but always on the lookout for more !!
By: - 19th January 2011 at 17:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lancaster R5679
I was trawling yahoo for information concerning a relative of mine he is listed here as T R Bevan but he was known as Sargeant Airgunner Ralph Bevan, I would be interest in any photos of R5679 there is a snapshot of ralph here
By: - 19th January 2011 at 18:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
update lancaster 5679
The internet is a wonderful tool after only 2 hours of trawling I have a picture of R5679
and a map of where the plane crashed. When looking through the records it states that one member of the crew managed to bale out but it was too low for his chute to deploy. I have spoken to my mother about this before and Ralphs mother received a photograph of him in his coffin for identification purposes. It had always been thought in the family that he had been shot whilst parachuting from the aircraft so this could have been him.
Mk1 Lancaster R5679 QR-O 61 squadron Syerston, shot down over Gronhos 25/9/42 whilst on a gardening mission to lay mines. R5679 was the only aircraft lost that night - Ralph was 19 years old
By: - 19th January 2011 at 21:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Rear gunners could rotate their turret, open the rear door and just fall out, but obviously this was a catastrophic crash and no time for parachute to deploy fully (if at all) but the rest of the crew had to either bale out via a panel near the bomb aimer, cockpit, rear fuselage door or any large opening. Very difficult, especially if in a spin, dive etc... but if anyone did get out, odds were likely to be the rear gunner. No way of telling in this case, just statistical possibility...
To be honest, I've not heard much about relatives receiving photographs of crew for identification purposes, anyone else know if this was a regular occurrence??
By: - 19th January 2011 at 21:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't forget the rear gunner first had to scrabble round in the dark to retrieve his parachute from behind the turret (in the fuselage) before exiting - how long could that take?
Incidentally, as I live in Gothenburg I visit Frederikshavn occasionally, so in the spring I will take a trip over, find the cemetery and get some grave photos.
Digressing a little, there are some RAF graves on Öckerö. an island where I used to live just outside Gothenburg, does anyone know the stories behind those?
I'll dig out the photos and start a new thread on them.
By: - 20th January 2011 at 00:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...but if anyone did get out, odds were likely to be the rear gunner.
Statistically the rear-gunner was least likely to survive from a shot-down Lancaster; as has already been said (until the advent of later turret designs) there wasn’t room for the rear-gunner to wear, or even store, his parachute in the turret.
By: - 20th January 2011 at 08:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nachtjager claim
Theo Boiten (Nachtjagd War Diaries, Vol 1, p.130) has ...
Oblt. Willi Elstermann St.Kpt. of 6./NJG3
8 km S.W. Viborg, 1,900m @ 01:22am
61 sqdn Lancaster, R5679
(his 5th claim)
cheers Don
By: - 20th January 2011 at 09:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lies, damn lies & statistics
Statistically the rear-gunner was least likely to survive from a shot-down Lancaster; as has already been said (until the advent of later turret designs) there wasn’t room for the rear-gunner to wear, or even store, his parachute in the turret.
Somewhere on my bookshelves, groaning with volumes on this topic as so many of us here also have :cool: ... I have a reference that states otherwise.
I'm not sure but "think" it's either Middlebrook's BCWD or "the Other Battle" by Peter Hinchcliffe.
Anyway, IIRC that source states that it was the pilot who was least likely to survive, both in point of fact (i.e. statistically) and logically because he typically tried the hold the aircraft as best as he could to allow others a chance to escape. As we all know, we're talking seconds to maybe a minute and a half or so here.
Bear in mind also we're talking Bomber Command, over the length of the war, i.e. for the most part night sorties. Early on, when raids were carried out in daylight, the rear gunner was indeed most likely to die, but not because he found it too hard to exit, rather o/a being shot dead in a fighter attack.
I will see if I can dig out the reference.
Creaking Door ... what is your reference here? I do note you state "a shot down Lancaster" whereas I'm talking Bomber Command.
regards Don
Posts: 6,968
By: kev35 - 6th October 2002 at 18:17
I need a bit of help with the following aircraft please.
Avro Lancaster R5679 of 61 Sqdn. coded QR-O was lost on the night of 24/25 September 1942 while engaged on mine laying operations to the Frisian Islands and the Baltic. 23 sorties were flown that night and this was the only aircraft lost.
My questions are:
1. Does anyone know if a picture exists of this aircraft?
2. Does anyone know the fate of the crew? I believe the navigator was a Sgt. A.M. Cormack who is buried in Denmark.
3. Anyone have any idea how the aircraft was lost? Flak? Night-fighter?
I would be extremely grateful if anyone could answer these questions or point me in the right direction.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
kev35