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P-51 G-SHWN 'The Shark' 'Mishap' At Le Touquet

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  • Archer
    Innocent bystander
    • Nov 2003
    • 1722

    #21
    Originally posted by Sopwith View Post
    There are crosswind limits on all aeroplanes...
    You can define 'crosswind limits' two ways:
    - Legal/official limit. As has been explained before, there may be a number in a manual somewhere above which you should not venture as a pilot. This may be a 'max demonstrated' number, which is where the test pilot, either because of common sense or meteorological conditions on the day, decided that enough was enough. Many operators have something in their OM that makes it a breach of company procedures to go beyond this, making it an official limit, or they create a different limit at a lower number.
    - Practical limits. There will be a point at which the yawing moment imparted on the aeroplane by a side component of the local wind will be stronger than the (opposite) yawing moment created by maximum rudder input from the pilot, assisted as needed by differential brakes and all other tricks that may be useful on that particular type. Before anyone says 'that's what I meant', please consider that this is NOT a fixed number, but is dependant on (in no particular order): whether we look at steady wind, or any gusts/turbulence/other influences creating unsteadiness, attitude of the aircraft (tail high, tail low, with associated rudder blanking), position of the elevator with associated tail blanking (which is dependant on loading for example), configuration of the aeroplane (flaps up, down or in between, possible use of airbrakes, external stores), wind direction (left or right), prop rotation (clockwise or counter-clockwise), rate of pitch change and the associated gyroscopic effects (which in themselves are dependant on the power setting), power setting and the associated slipstream effects, airspeed and the rate of airspeed change. If I left something out, my apologies.

    What this boils down to is this: unless you really know your aeroplane, stick to any applicable limits and keep some kind of margin in hand for the day where one of these variables may try to bite you.

    A Little VC10derness - A Tribute to the Vickers VC10 - www.VC10.net

    Comment

    • adrian_gray
      Which idiot let HIM in?
      • Jan 2000
      • 3018

      #22
      Originally posted by Trolly Aux View Post
      Thanks Stan, at least someone with experience telling it how it is,
      I hate seeing pilots being criticised when the person doing the criticism has no skills other than tapping a computer keyboard.
      Which is precisely why I made it clear that I had no practical experience and hoped to get information from those who had (eg Stan) - I want to learn from them.

      There is, unfortunately, no way that anyone can prevent images like this from turning into CLICkBAIT HORROR!! headlines.

      Adrian
      Last edited by adrian_gray; 10th September 2019, 14:41. Reason: Inability to tripe clearly
      "Snow clearing equipment has been found under snowdrift" - message sent from RNAS Hatston, Orkney, 1944.

      Comment

      • ozplane
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Mar 2004
        • 1651

        #23
        Looking at the Facebook pictures in the first post, it looks as though he was doing a "wing low in to the crosswind" approach judging by the windsock in a later picture. It only takes a strong gust to lift the low wing and things can rapidly get tricky. I had exactly the same problem going in to our farm strip last week but I was high enough to "go around", albeit not down the runway centreline. Could be entirely wrong though..

        Comment

        • Peter
          Moderator
          • Jan 2000
          • 12518

          #24
          Gentlemen, lets act like adults.. If you want to bicker and argue then do it by PM....
          Cheers,Peter
          "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

          Comment

          • Bradburger
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2000
            • 1461

            #25
            We'll, this kind of things happens from time to time, whatever aircraft you are flying, despite your overall experience, and time on type!

            Here's the late Spencer Flack's P-51 'Sunny VII' displaying at Cosford in 1991 in the hands of Rod Dean I believe: -



            (Fwd to 1:08 or so if you want the 'exciting' bit!)

            I've read/heard that the P-51 is quite prone to this happening when a sudden gust catches you by surprise, and seeing that this is the second P-51, and the third time I've seen evidence of it happening, it appears to be true!

            Cheers

            Paul
            The most usless commodity in aerobatics is the amount of sky above you!

            Comment

            • Brenden S
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Dec 2016
              • 207

              #26
              Looking at the photos the theory I have and seen myself is that it is a normal landing and then a gust of wind comes along and picks up the wing. I have seen many large aircraft land like this too where I live in Perth.

              Comment

              • adrian_gray
                Which idiot let HIM in?
                • Jan 2000
                • 3018

                #27
                Presumably as the P-51 was built as a fighter aircraft, things like crosswind handling weren't high on the list of priorities when they were designed?* I know the Mustang had some *interesting* habits such as torque rolling round the prop if you opened the throttle too fast at low speed - at least one did this on approach at Debden, as a prop blade is on display in the antiques centre there - that must have been considered as acceptable risks.

                Assuming that Brenden's theory is a good one, I guess that would be unavoidable without knowing that the gust was coming? And Bardburger's observation supports this.

                Adrian


                *This is assuming you can design such things in, of course, can you?
                "Snow clearing equipment has been found under snowdrift" - message sent from RNAS Hatston, Orkney, 1944.

                Comment

                • hampden98
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 2560

                  #28
                  Lanc was prone to leave the runway rather dramatically when they used to three point land her.
                  Mildenhall one year iirc was particularly interesting.

                  Comment

                  • Wyvernfan
                    wyvernfan@gmail.com
                    • Oct 2007
                    • 5905

                    #29
                    Indeed hampden but I thought that was brake related rather than crosswind?!
                    Facebook page
                    https://www.facebook.com/Westland.Wy...tif_t=page_fan

                    Comment

                    • Trolly Aux
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • May 2006
                      • 3860

                      #30
                      Wheeling it on in gusty conditions is best foot forward come in faster gives you a bit of a chance over the 3 pointer
                      SMOKE SMOKE GO!
                      TA out

                      Comment

                      • ChrisD
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jul 2013
                        • 68

                        #31
                        Originally posted by hampden98 View Post
                        Lanc was prone to leave the runway rather dramatically when they used to three point land her.
                        Mildenhall one year iirc was particularly interesting.
                        I'd forgotten all about that but now you've reminded me , yes, that was an interesting landing!

                        Comment

                        • Pulsar-xp
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Mar 2012
                          • 166

                          #32
                          I thank everybody who is flying taildraggers, will know what happened to him! And nobody of us will say, that can t happen to me.....

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