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P-51 G-SHWN 'The Shark' 'Mishap' At Le Touquet

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  • skeeler
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jul 2008
    • 145

    P-51 G-SHWN 'The Shark' 'Mishap' At Le Touquet

    From these 14 photos it appears that the P-51 Mustang G-SHWN, 'The Shark', had a narrow escape with calamity at Le Touquet yesterday - fortunately both pilot and passenger are obviously unhurt and the aircraft will be repairable:-

    https://www.facebook.com/OlivierCaen...type=3&theater

  • Newforest
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Apr 2005
    • 8893

    #2
    Great photos and great flying!
    http://www.flightmemory.com/ I have been round the world 11.83 times!

    Comment

    • adrian_gray
      Which idiot let HIM in?
      • Jan 2000
      • 3018

      #3
      OK, I'm going to admit straight away that I'm indulging in the same ill-informed specualtion that drives us all mad here. Feel free to dive in and attempt to change my mind - especially if you have experience in the field, which I know some people here do, and I don't. There's at least one other video online of this P51 getting into trouble with a crosswind on landing. Should the operators be revising their crosswind limits?

      Mods - if that's going too far - I will not be upset if you splat my post.

      Adrian
      (just glad I'm not the one doing the passenger's laundry)
      "Snow clearing equipment has been found under snowdrift" - message sent from RNAS Hatston, Orkney, 1944.

      Comment

      • aeronut 2008
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2008
        • 1568

        #4
        Should the operators be revising their crosswind limits?
        Possibly, but I can foresee the insurers imposing them first.

        Comment

        • Orion
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jun 2009
          • 709

          #5
          Does anyone know if there are crosswind limits on a P-51? Was this tested on 1940-41?
          David Mylchreest
          Steam and Model Railway videos http://www.youtube.com/user/PenrithBeacon
          Aviation videos http://www.youtube.com/user/austerfive

          Comment

          • Sopwith
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Mar 2009
            • 1526

            #6
            There are crosswind limits on all aeroplanes Orion, but don’t know what they are on a P51 though.

            Comment

            • Fournier Boy
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Mar 2007
              • 1047

              #7
              Incorrect Sopwith - the Piper Pawnee for example has no crosswind limit at all. Common sense prevails - if it’s too windy to leave it parked, don’t fly it...

              Comment

              • Rich82
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jun 2005
                • 247

                #8
                Wasn't crosswind deemed to be the cause of 'Janie' crashing at Hardwick a few years ago? On which note, I trust Maurice Hammond is progressing with his recovery? Is there any information on whether 'Janie' will be 'rebuilt' to fly again, similarly 'BBD' after her crash following collision with the Skyraider?

                TIA,

                Rich

                Comment

                • Archer
                  Innocent bystander
                  • Nov 2003
                  • 1722

                  #9
                  Crosswind limits weren’t considered when airfields could be used in several directions. Even various Cessnas and Pipers up until the late 90s/early 00s only have a ‘maximum demonstrated’ figure and therefore no stated limit.
                  A Little VC10derness - A Tribute to the Vickers VC10 - www.VC10.net

                  Comment

                  • Sopwith
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Mar 2009
                    • 1526

                    #10
                    Well there may not be a stated crosswind limit on a Pawnee, Fournier Boy but there will be a limit, either how much the particular pilot can handle or how much the the aircraft can safely handle.

                    Comment

                    • Orion
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jun 2009
                      • 709

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Sopwith View Post
                      There are crosswind limits on all aeroplanes Orion, but don’t know what they are on a P51 though.
                      Not convinced this is true for all aeroplanes. I'm by no means convinced that veteran and vintage aeroplanes had the necessary testing applied to them. Does anyone know when the relevant British authorities (for a start perhaps) began such testing?
                      David Mylchreest
                      Steam and Model Railway videos http://www.youtube.com/user/PenrithBeacon
                      Aviation videos http://www.youtube.com/user/austerfive

                      Comment

                      • ZRX61
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • May 2005
                        • 4809

                        #12
                        Originally posted by aeronut 2008 View Post
                        Possibly, but I can foresee the insurers imposing them first.
                        Assuming they find out...It's not likely to result in a claim.
                        If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                        Comment

                        • ZRX61
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • May 2005
                          • 4809

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Orion View Post
                          Not convinced this is true for all aeroplanes. I'm by no means convinced that veteran and vintage aeroplanes had the necessary testing applied to them. Does anyone know when the relevant British authorities (for a start perhaps) began such testing?
                          Probably about five minutes after someone coined the phrase "ground loop"

                          If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                          Comment

                          • steve611
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 182

                            #14
                            At the risk of being provocative, what I remember from when I flew was "maximum demonstrated crosswind landing". With that is the assumption that it is entirely possible to get it right above that limit- it is simply the case that a seriously qualified test pilot had done that but no further. As a low hours pilot I dialed a few crosswind knots off my personal limit.

                            Comment

                            • Chitts
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 139

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Rich82 View Post
                              Wasn't crosswind deemed to be the cause of 'Janie' crashing at Hardwick a few years ago? On which note, I trust Maurice Hammond is progressing with his recovery? Is there any information on whether 'Janie' will be 'rebuilt' to fly again, similarly 'BBD' after her crash following collision with the Skyraider?

                              TIA,

                              Rich
                              No, a poorly executed go-around was more the issue.

                              Comment

                              • Stan Smith
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • May 2011
                                • 472

                                #16
                                Don'cha luv them "armchair Experts" ?? The correct term is "Demonstrated Crosswind Limit". ie the amount of crosswind present on the day that the certification authority (FAA,CAA,CASA,DOT,CAB etc) was observing during said certification trials. If aged memory serves me right from my aircrew days, the DC 10 "limit" was only 10 knots, then some time later was repromulgated as 34 knots. The limit is only a guide as to what is reasonably safe for an average pilot rather than a "Faster than this you will damage the aircraft or yourself" but for some it is lower and others somewhat higher. As a longterm flight instructor I can "demonstrate " to a student what I and/or the aircraft can hopefully cope with so that he/she knows that it is themselves that is the limiting factor, not the aircraft. "Don't let your confidence exceed your competence" OK ramble rant over.

                                Comment

                                • Trolly Aux
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • May 2006
                                  • 3860

                                  #17
                                  Thanks Stan, at least someone with experience telling it how it is,
                                  I hate seeing pilots being criticised when the person doing the criticism has no skills other than tapping a computer keyboard.
                                  SMOKE SMOKE GO!
                                  TA out

                                  Comment

                                  • Sopwith
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Mar 2009
                                    • 1526

                                    #18
                                    No criticism of anyone on my part as I can appreciate things can happen. Speaking as a 1000 hrs+ pilot ( most on tailwheel ). So no armchair expert

                                    Comment

                                    • Trolly Aux
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • May 2006
                                      • 3860

                                      #19
                                      Sopwith its no criticism of you at all, relates to the Duxford thread I have expressed in.
                                      SMOKE SMOKE GO!
                                      TA out

                                      Comment

                                      • sycamore
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Mar 2004
                                        • 409

                                        #20
                                        All military aircraft have x-wind limits,determined on a variety of surfaces,depending on the aircraft role,and with various weapons fitted,both symmetrical and asymmetric,and any special techniques necessary..If ,as a pilot you should go outside those limits and damage the aircraft,unless you have strong mitigating/extenuating circumstances ,you will have a `one way conversation,no tea/biccies,with higher authority`...
                                        Civilian Aviation Authorities usually do not apply such limits,normally a `maximum demonstrated` x-wind,and leave it to the operator/airline to make their own decision.....same with CAP632 Operators...
                                        In this case,a strong or gusty x-wind landing should be a `wheelie`,,preferably with less flap,or retract laps after touchdown,and with the stick nailed into wind to prevent the upwind wing from rising...it is unwise to attempt a 3-pointer in gusty x-winds....
                                        Presume the aircraft will return on a trailer, as the skin wrinkles would indicate a possible bent rear spar.....
                                        Would have been better to have landed a few miles down the coast.......

                                        Comment

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