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Sea Harriers On UK Register

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  • scotavia
    scotavia
    • Nov 2005
    • 2813

    #21
    Harriers,hover and distilled water, assorted info and tales from air and ground crew....https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-587653.html

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    • Bruce
      Independent analyst
      • Jan 2000
      • 10223

      #22
      Some years ago, I was vociferous in my commenting that another aircraft would never gain permission to fly from the CAA - and I was wrong. I refer of course to the Vulcan. So I take the view of never say never. The Harrier, although defined as complex, isn't especially so; with the exception of the engine controls.

      This said, I did contact Rolls Royce on behalf of a customer about 15 years ago, to see if it might be possible. My request went all the way to the board, and was turned down flat. At the time, that was that - but things change, and ways can be found. It is also true that one can register anything in the UK with great ease. It could be said to be a statement of intent rather than anything else.


      Bruce

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      • Nad
        Nad
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Apr 2014
        • 45

        #23
        I can assure you that this whole project has been looked into at all angles and would have been shelved years ago if there was no intention of flying the aircraft in the UK. The engines controls do not put the aircraft in the complex category as the engine is not FADEC. The aircraft would also be a waste of time if it was not able to hover as it was intended when it was built. The good thing is that for every doubter, there are a hundred people that will assist in every way they can to help this project become a reality.

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        • Firebird
          Avons with attitude
          • Mar 2003
          • 2163

          #24
          Originally posted by Ex Brat View Post
          Firebird, no escape for you; pull up a chair.
          Chair.....pah, I've got the sun lounger out and a VAT at my side, and I'm all ready and waiting.......

          I was with it all the way until letting the brakes off..........

          Comment

          • Ex Brat
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Mar 2013
            • 27

            #25
            Good on ya Firebird.

            Nad, can you remind me of the Sea Harrier wing material? I seem to recall the type had quite a high in-service accident rate too. That and the reaction control system too. I think FADEC would be the least of the problems.

            Comment

            • Sabrejet
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Mar 2010
              • 1757

              #26
              Originally posted by Ex Brat View Post
              Good on ya Firebird.

              Nad, can you remind me of the Sea Harrier wing material?
              Aloominum or carbon fibre, depending on how old it is. If it's the latter then it shouldn't pose any issues other than convincing old farts that it's not an Airfix kit. And getting them to stop banging on about BVID and other CFRP-related BS.

              Comment

              • Ex Brat
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Mar 2013
                • 27

                #27
                If it's the latter then it shouldn't pose any issues other than convincing old farts that it's not an Airfix kit. And getting them to stop banging on about BVID and other CFRP-related BS.
                Yea, thats the way to get the CAA on board with an aircraft type they already define as in the complex category.
                Last edited by Ex Brat; 12th August 2019, 20:32.

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                • Vega ECM
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 492

                  #28
                  Originally posted by Nad View Post
                  The engines controls do not put the aircraft in the complex category as the engine is not FADEC. T.
                  CAA CAP1640 quotes the Harrier as example of an aeroplane which falls into the Complex category.... its not up for negotiation.

                  As I understand it, a civil operator can only operate a Complex category aircraft with an active supporting design authority(DA). You cant just set one up and the current one is BAESYSTEMS. Hence they would need to transfer (or is that extend) their DA to a company which meets their approvals. In the case of the only other Complex historic aircraft, the Vulcan, this was when they approved Marshals of Cambridge as the DA.

                  As BAESYSTEMS still support a small number of legacy Harriers in various militarys, I struggle with how they would ever accept establishing any organisation which could become a competitor.
                  Last edited by Vega ECM; 13th August 2019, 20:14.

                  Comment

                  • bazv
                    olde rigger
                    • Feb 2005
                    • 5876

                    #29
                    Originally posted by Sabrejet View Post

                    Aloominum or carbon fibre, depending on how old it is. If it's the latter then it shouldn't pose any issues other than convincing old farts that it's not an Airfix kit. And getting them to stop banging on about BVID and other CFRP-related BS.
                    All Sea Harriers/Harrier 1's are aloominum wing/fuselage and fairly bullet proof/strong structure.All Harrier 2 (AV8B/GR5,7,9) are composite wing with metal (rear fuselage) and Composite (front fuselage).
                    Metal structure is of course much easier to examine/repair using simple hand tools - composite structures are much more difficult to examine for damage/defects and also to repair without specialist equipment.
                    Last edited by bazv; 13th August 2019, 09:11.

                    Comment

                    • Sabrejet
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Mar 2010
                      • 1757

                      #30
                      CFRP is widely supported these days and repair/examination straightforward, though it does require a bit more infrastructure to ensure correct environment for repairs + there's the H&S aspect too. Again, widely-supported and nothing to be afraid of.

                      I used to be a naysayer but several years of experience with composite airframe repairs and associated NDT convinced me it's the way forward. It also doesn't corrode (though will promote corrosion in neighbouring metallics), and that too is a big bonus.

                      Comment

                      • D1566
                        Needs retiring.
                        • Apr 2006
                        • 2120

                        #31
                        Originally posted by Vega ECM View Post
                        As BAESYSTEMS still support a small number of legacy Harriers in various militarys, I struggle with how they would ever accept establishing any organisation which could become a competitor.
                        Do they still provide support or is it Boeing these days?

                        Martin

                        Comment

                        • Vega ECM
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Oct 2005
                          • 492

                          #32
                          Its a while since I had contact with the Harrier support team at Farnborough, but they were keeping about a dozen guys busy (200 when Harrier was still being used by the RAF). I guess its possible that its all been transferred across the pond but they were keen to keep a basic capability going as long as possible.

                          Comment

                          • XL189
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 63

                            #33
                            Thinking about it, these wouldn't be the first Harriers flown with a civilian reg.
                            G-VTOL, a MK.52, was operated by British Aerospace for a while but I guess that OEM support wasn't a problem to them!

                            First flight video here:


                            https://www.britishpathe.com/video/V...VTOL/query/1st

                            Comment

                            • Ex Brat
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Mar 2013
                              • 27

                              #34
                              Indeed, except it was first registered to Hawker Siddeley in 1970. The papers are at the National Archives, but ISTR the argument to allowing civil registration was that touring the world on an export drive with a military registered aircraft wasnt the thing to do. As you say, they did design, build, and support the aircraft.

                              Comment

                              • Hooligan
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Mar 2017
                                • 514

                                #35
                                GR.1 XV742 was also briefly G-VSTO in '71 so John Farley could demonstrate it in Switzerland.

                                Comment

                                • avion ancien
                                  Long ago and far away ...
                                  • Aug 2007
                                  • 5308

                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by Bruce View Post
                                  It is also true that one can register anything in the UK with great ease.
                                  Viz G-ZZZZ, the Wakelin Point Maker Mk. 1 Free Balloon!

                                  Comment

                                  • XL189
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Apr 2011
                                    • 63

                                    #37
                                    G-BINA, B & C a "BALLOON (MINIMUM LIFT)(UNMANNED)"

                                    .....black plastic bin liners!

                                    The best one was G-DJIM... A Manhole Cover!

                                    Comment

                                    • Hooligan
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Mar 2017
                                      • 514

                                      #38
                                      Recall the bin liner craze,there were hundreds of the bloody things registered around '81. Think it began with several radio controlled balloons - Bernard Martin had a couple and there may have been a legitimate reason for registering them.

                                      Off topic but then again they were also supposed to rise vertically on hot air...

                                      Comment

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