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Another French Plane for You to Name

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  • Romantic Techno
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jul 2010
    • 243

    Another French Plane for You to Name

    Hi freinds,

    AA and others: there is another picture where you may help me with. It is surely French (although I admit, cockades in black and white more than one time do confuse), and a trainer. Again, I cannot reconstruct where the picture is from. The source said, we see a Morane-Saulnier MS 430. I think that's plainly wrong, and not only the cowling is very different. There are a couple of slots behind it, which the MS 430 does not show. The MS 430 has a retractable undercarriage. Here, it looks like being fixed, but I am not quite sure. If it were retractable, the covering would form a kind of half-spats.

    Do you know what this is? Thanks in advance for every answer!

    Regards, RT Click image for larger version

Name:	Morane-Saulnier MS 430 falsch.JPG
Views:	750
Size:	91.9 KB
ID:	3868028
  • pogno
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Dec 2005
    • 1182

    #2
    It looks like a two seat version or a close relation of the Koolhoven F.K.58.

    Richard
    "Where are you from?"
    "America" Somebody laughed politely.

    Comment

    • avion ancien
      Long ago and far away ...
      • Aug 2007
      • 5309

      #3
      I doubt that the aeroplane in the photograph has a fixed undercarriage. What one can see outboard of the wheel is, I suggest, a fairing designed to fit flush to the wing roots when the inboard closing undercarriage has been lifted and is stowed. However it does look like a French military aeroplane. It looks as if the type/model details faintly are apparent on the rudder. If so, I'd not be quick as to dismiss the likelihood of it being a M.S.430/435. At least that did exist in two seat trainer form - evidence of which there does not appear to be for the FK.58 or, for that matter, the Bloch MB.150 series. I think that one can safely exclude the Curtiss Hawk, which exhausts the list of suitable candidates dating from the Fall of France period (and the photograph looks likely to be one of those post Fall of France images taken by members of the occupying German forces).

      Comment

      • l.garey
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Feb 2006
        • 1951

        #4
        I agree that the most likely would be the MS430. The MS435 only appeared as the prototype "01", of which there are various illustrations (just Google it) that show the engine cowling more open rearwards and the fin/rudder shapes looking quite pointed (somewhat like the MS406). It's more difficult to find photos of the MS430. The prototype "01" seems to have undergone several modifications of the fin/rudder shape from pointy to weird. The final form, as far as I can judge, must have been not far off that seen in the photo by RT. I am still puzzled by that excrescence on the undercarriage. AA may be right, but I think the MS430's wheels were not covered by doors, so could it just be a loose piece leaning against the leg? There is clearly at least one dismantled aircraft in the background, so maybe there were scrap bits lying around. If only we could read the identity on the rudder!

        Laurence

        Comment

        • Graham Boak
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Nov 2008
          • 955

          #5
          The undercarriage is distinctively Koolhoven, that's not an excrescence bur the door shaped to match the belly. Look at photos of the FK58. Although I'm not familiar with the MS430 the shapes of the fuselage and fin match that of the FK58 rather than other Morane designs.

          Edit: The penny has dropped - that's not a 2-seater but an FK58 with a fuselage access panel removed. If you look the fuselage line behind the cockpit (under the slid-back canopy) it has fallen away towards the line of the rear fuselage, and there is no room for a forward-sliding rear canopy nor rails for a rearward-sliding one.
          Last edited by Graham Boak; 15th July 2019, 17:39.

          Comment

          • Romantic Techno
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jul 2010
            • 243

            #6
            I think we got it. First, I thought Pogno was just phantasizing. But then I took a look at the FK 58 pictures. So, tailplane: match, undercarriage: match, slots behind the cowling and exhaust: match.

            This is a... two-seater version of the FK 58, probably for training! Undescribed yet, at least in Wikipedia!
            Well, these are the moments I am working for!

            Thank you all, especially Pogno!

            And best regards,
            RT

            Comment

            • Graham Boak
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Nov 2008
              • 955

              #7
              Sorry to disappoint you, but take a look at the edit to my posting, which went up the same time as yours. Methinks it a bog-standard FK58 single-seater. Though I admit it had me thinking the same as you for a while.

              Comment

              • avion ancien
                Long ago and far away ...
                • Aug 2007
                • 5309

                #8
                Fair point, Graham. If it's a two seater, only one of the two has the benefit of a canopy!

                Comment

                • ericmunk
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Apr 2009
                  • 1735

                  #9
                  Without a doubt a single-seat FK58, with the bagage compartment cover behind the canopy missing. Gear door and stabilizer struts are dead-give-aways.

                  Comment

                  • Graham Boak
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 955

                    #10
                    That's what I thought, but I didn't know enough about the FK58 to confirm there was such a panel. Not having a canopy over the rear could be forgiven, but the lack of a windscreen or forward view is more significant.

                    Comment

                    • avion ancien
                      Long ago and far away ...
                      • Aug 2007
                      • 5309

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Graham Boak View Post
                      but the lack of a windscreen or forward view is more significant.
                      Maybe some bright spark thought it could be used for blind flying training!

                      Comment

                      • l.garey
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Feb 2006
                        • 1951

                        #12
                        Nice. Well spotted! Now we know, it's obvious. That undercarriage fairing is a give-away for the knowledgeable. You can even see what I take to be a gun sight pointing forward in front of the windscreen.


                        Laurence

                        Comment

                        • avion ancien
                          Long ago and far away ...
                          • Aug 2007
                          • 5309

                          #13
                          Originally posted by ericmunk View Post
                          Without a doubt a single-seat FK58, with the bagage compartment cover behind the canopy missing.
                          Can anyone tell me (sensible answers only, please) why the French would order a fighter with a baggage compartment.

                          Comment

                          • ozplane
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Mar 2004
                            • 1646

                            #14
                            Parce qu'ils ont besoin d'un vacance peutetre?

                            Comment

                            • Romantic Techno
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jul 2010
                              • 243

                              #15
                              Hi all,

                              well, no matter if fighter aircraft have distinctive baggage compartments or not, I remember stories of the difficulties to quickly transfer a fighter unit in WWII. Nothing impossible in terms of airplane speed. But - pilots have personal belongings too, and parts of the ground crew and equipment had to be transferred as well. Bf 109s often became considerably stuffed, with very uncomfortanle travel circumstances for the "passengers".
                              Well, I see there is no second canopy, nor another rail for it, although it looks like the rail for the pilot's one (which is seen) is prolonged backward. We also cannot see if there is a second seat or not (I often wonder what except steering wires is in the tail of aircraft like these, if there are no fuselage fuel tanks). But - there is not just a compartment cover missing, for baggage or whatever. I upload another FK 58 picture that shows a solid cover behind the cockpit. Contrary to this, in my first picture this area shows a distinctive and conciously manufactured opening, if this is for another seat or whatever.

                              I hope we can agree my first picture shows an unusual FK 58.
                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Koolhoven FK 58 (2).jpg
Views:	370
Size:	168.8 KB
ID:	3868135

                              Regards, RT

                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                              • avion ancien
                                Long ago and far away ...
                                • Aug 2007
                                • 5309

                                #16
                                Originally posted by ozplane View Post
                                Parce qu'ils ont besoin d'un vacance peutetre?
                                Peut-tre.

                                Comment

                                • Malcolm McKay
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Aug 2004
                                  • 1813

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by avion ancien View Post

                                  Can anyone tell me (sensible answers only, please) why the French would order a fighter with a baggage compartment.
                                  Well the P35 as used by the USAAC had a compartment for pilots personal baggage - presumably to carry possessions needed for personal use when deployed for short periods.

                                  Comment

                                  • bearoutwest
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2005
                                    • 154

                                    #18
                                    It looks like the primary access for the radio compartment too. The prototype photo doesn't show the panel lines but later operational photos and drawings do show lines for the hatch.
                                    Cutaway drawing linked: https://live.staticflickr.com/6128/5...2c1660c4_b.jpg

                                    ...geoff
                                    ...converting fuel to noise.

                                    Comment

                                    • avion ancien
                                      Long ago and far away ...
                                      • Aug 2007
                                      • 5309

                                      #19
                                      Thank you, gentlemen.

                                      Comment

                                      • John Aeroclub
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jul 2006
                                        • 2770

                                        #20
                                        I'm late to the party as I've just got back from holiday. The original photo of the FK,58 appears on page 135 in the Koolhoven book by Wesslink and Postma. This panel is very difficult to see on most photos of the production FK.58's.

                                        John

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