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  • 1batfastard
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2013
    • 3360

    '' THAT'S ALL BROTHER "

    TAB before restoration.

    Video courtesy of:- andy.maag. (CAF)

    Click image for larger version  Name:	62175564_10156413759537215_2741045675880873  984_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=b093652f4d691d419b7022ef00a2b957&oe=5D9657  07.jpg Views:	0 Size:	79.2 KB ID:	3864762
    Picture courtesy of:- http://www.facebook.com/globalaviati...k*F&tn-str=k*F

    Hi All,
    I watched a three part special via SKY/History channel about the C47 that lead the first wave after the pathfinder forces did anybody else ?

    It was very interesting about the discovery of what was thought to have been a lost historical aircraft, traced & re-discovered again the rest is history as they say! which is told right up until it takes off on the first leg of the D-DAY 75th flight.......

    EDIT: One for the technical engine buffs - When the co-pilot is counting the propellers revolutions (i.e. 3/6/9/12) Is this compression before they fire the engine to life ?

    Geoff.
    Last edited by 1batfastard; 16th June 2019, 17:49.
  • JohnTerrell
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Apr 2010
    • 385

    #2
    It's rather amusing the article's use of that first pic, of an abandoned-looking C-47, trying to make it seem as if that is as bad off as the aircraft was - it's not the same aircraft (nor was it in that bad of shape when the CAF acquired it from Basler).

    This is how it looked up to right before the restoration by the CAF got started (where it had been sitting only since 2008): https://www.flickr.com/photos/110881...3/39302394245/

    The previous owner, who acquired the aircraft in 2002, and restored it into Vietnam "Spooky" gunship configuration and paint scheme, was aware that it was likely used in D-Day, but didn't know the full depth of its assignments/missions during the war, and I recall he had the aircraft configured/painted the way it was so as to honor a friend who was killed in the Vietnam war. I was lucky enough to see it perform at an airshow in 2005, at which time it looked fantastic in the gunship configuration and paint scheme. By 2007, the owner began trying to sell the aircraft to other operators, but couldn't find any takers, and thus in 2008 sold it to Basler, who in turn would be able to make a profit off of converting it into a turbo-prop. While in storage with Basler, the full story of the aircraft's involvement in D-Day become known - had it been known when the previous owner was trying to sell it, he likely would have had a number of interested buyers and it wouldn't have ended up at Basler.
    Last edited by JohnTerrell; 8th June 2019, 18:55.

    Comment

    • DragonRapide
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jun 2007
      • 1005

      #3
      Originally posted by

      [B
      EDIT:[/B] One for the technical engine buffs - When the co-pilot is counting the propellers revolutions (i.e. 3/6/9/12/15) Is this compression before they fire the engine to life ?

      Geoff.
      I'm definitely not an expert but I do remember being lucky enough to fly in "Piglet" - Duxford's Varsity G-BEDV / WJ945 and hearing one of the flight crew counting the blades as the Hercules engines were turned on the starter before ignition was engaged. 12 blades as I recall. My understanding is, with radials, it is essential to circulate the oil that will have gathered in the lower cylinders before starting to avoid catastrophic internal damage. I guess, on smaller engines, they could be pulled through by hand for a few blades.

      Listening out for something interesting approaching...

      Comment

      • ZRX61
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • May 2005
        • 4715

        #4
        Originally posted by DragonRapide View Post

        I'm definitely not an expert but I do remember being lucky enough to fly in "Piglet" - Duxford's Varsity G-BEDV / WJ945 and hearing one of the flight crew counting the blades as the Hercules engines were turned on the starter before ignition was engaged. 12 blades as I recall. My understanding is, with radials, it is essential to circulate the oil that will have gathered in the lower cylinders before starting to avoid catastrophic internal damage. I guess, on smaller engines, they could be pulled through by hand for a few blades.
        TFC pulled 12 blades by hand on their B25 & I've pulled 12 on a 3350 (along with a few other people) It's basically to check the engine won't hydraulic lock on the starter & to squeeze any oil into the exhaust stacks so it ends up along the sides of the fuselage or all over the ramp instead of bending a rod or blowing a jug off.
        If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

        Comment

        • DragonRapide
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jun 2007
          • 1005

          #5
          There we go - good to hear it from someone who really knows what they are talking about! Many thanks.
          Listening out for something interesting approaching...

          Comment

          • rutley
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Aug 2014
            • 89

            #6
            TFC also pulled 12 blades by hand on "No Guts, No Glory", the P47 now owned by Anglia Aircraft Restorations. I noticed that this was not done on either day of it flying at Daks over Normandy. Has there been a modification to ensure oil is in the right place before starting?

            Comment

            • jack windsor
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Dec 2008
              • 917

              #7
              I was watching a you tube video on how to start a C.47, and the pilots were taking you through the sequence and said the DC.3/C.47 had a hydraulic lock which meant the blades did not have to be turned by hand... so why would other a/c built after the DC.3's etc have to be turned?

              Comment

              • Ant.H
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2000
                • 3048

                #8
                I'm sure someone with greater knowledge will be along to clarify, but if I remember rightly some later-spec radials have a kind of clutch on the starter mechanism that disengages the starter if hydraulic lock is encountered. The R-3350's on DC-7's, C97's etc had these fitted and I wonder if some warbirds have had a similar system retro-fitted?
                "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease." Sergei Sikorsky

                Comment

                • Beaufighter VI
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Sep 2005
                  • 517

                  #9
                  Right from the get go we pulled radials through, if you could reach! The Centaurus on the Beverley was turned through on the starter motor, count the blades, then ignition on. Same on the Hastings even though we could reach. The Centaurus was noted for the amount of oil that drained down into the cylinders, on start up it went everywhere.
                  At TFC, as has been mentioned, we would pull through by hand. If a cylinder had a hydraulic lock it would mean dropping the spark plugs out of the lower cylinders to drain out the oil. It was also important to clear out the exhausts as oil trapped in them could re-enter the cylinder when the exhaust valve opened.

                  On the Fiat A-74 fitted in the Fiat CR-42 is a sprung loaded shut off fitted to the main oil filter. On engine shut down it would be operated to cut off the oil supply. A good idea if the crew remembered to re-set it for the next start. When the CR-42 served with the Swedes as the J-11 they introduced a modification to prevent the ignition being turned on unless the shut off was reset. Prior to the modification I guess they lost a few engines when crew forgot to turn on the oil supply.
                  " I'm not young enough to know everything." - J M Barrie 1903

                  Comment

                  • tbyguy
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Aug 2004
                    • 170

                    #10

                    I don't feel pulling radials through by hand vs starter turning is a one-method-is-better-than-the-other discussion. Rather, there are correct/safe(r) and incorrect/unsafe ways to perform either.

                    For the sake of both personal enlightenment and contemplation on hydraulic lock, I'd encourage reading the following by long-time, big-radial operator Randy Sohn:

                    http://www.douglasdc3.com/sohn/1.htm

                    And even further enlightenment...

                    http://www.douglasdc3.com/sohn/9.htm

                    And even more good stuff from Mr. Sohn:

                    http://www.douglasdc3.com/sohn/warbird.htm


                    Keep 'em flying

                    Comment

                    • Archer
                      Innocent bystander
                      • Nov 2003
                      • 1705

                      #11
                      Depending on the engine type, some starters are 'direct-drive', where the engine turns as soon as the starter turns. On these, you can have a shear pin in the connection that lets go when too much resistance is encountered. This should prevent the system from bending a rod or busting something due to hydraulic lock, and on these engines you can turn the engine over a set number of blades on the starter, before switching on the ignition.

                      On the B-25, the R-2600 engine has an inertia starter. In this setup the starter turns a flywheel, once this is up to speed you use the 'mesh' switch to engage the clutch, this transfers the energy from the flywheel to the engine by connecting the two. With this setup, a hydraulic lock would end up in a busted something as the energy in that flywheel will have to go somewhere. And you can't include a shear pin, as it would probably go once every start whenever you hit 'mesh'. The inertia system allows the starter to overcome a larger initial resistance in larger engines, with larger compression figures, but it introduces a risk as well as it is easier to bust something. Because of that, pulling the engine through a couple of times by hand is a sensible precaution. The number of blades you use for that is dependent on the prop gearing and the requirement to at least have every cylinder go through a complete intake - compression - expansion - outlet cycle. The first link in tbyguy's post above explains this a lot better than I can.
                      Last edited by Archer; 9th June 2019, 15:27.
                      A Little VC10derness - A Tribute to the Vickers VC10 - www.VC10.net

                      Comment

                      • ZRX61
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • May 2005
                        • 4715

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Ant.H View Post
                        I'm sure someone with greater knowledge will be along to clarify, but if I remember rightly some later-spec radials have a kind of clutch on the starter mechanism that disengages the starter if hydraulic lock is encountered. The R-3350's on DC-7's, C97's etc had these fitted and I wonder if some warbirds have had a similar system retro-fitted?
                        The 3350 engined SeaFury I worked on had this feature.



                        On the former TFC F7F we fitted scavenge pumps & gate valves to get the oil out after shutdown & keep it out. Also wired it so that the valves had to be opened before you could spin the starter to prevent the meat servo's from firing it up with no oil supply... Switches to open the valves were in one of the gear wells next to the pre oiler switches etc. Always fun to watch from the crowd line/ VIP tent as a pilot would get all strapped in & then have to get out again to open the valves. They only did that once.

                        scavenge & pre-oil pumps:



                        gate valve:


                        Last edited by ZRX61; 9th June 2019, 15:49.
                        If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                        Comment

                        • 1batfastard
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2013
                          • 3360

                          #13
                          Hi All,
                          Thanks for all the answers.........

                          John Terrel:- I did wonder about that picture as when clicking the link to the CAF it just enlarges the picture, so I have edited the link to take you to the main CAF web site. I have emailed the CAF and the article source MPS News to query the picture so am awaiting a response for a definitive answer before I remove the picture and article link. Many thanks John for the info provided though.....

                          Geoff.
                          Last edited by 1batfastard; 9th June 2019, 18:48.

                          Comment

                          • Nik Coleman
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jul 2008
                            • 19

                            #14
                            Originally posted by 1batfastard View Post
                            Hi All,
                            Thanks for all the answers.........

                            John Terrel:- I did wonder about that picture as when clicking the link to the CAF it just enlarges the picture, so I have edited the link to take you to the main CAF web site. I have emailed the CAF and the article source MPS News to query the picture so am awaiting a response for a definitive answer before I remove the picture and article link. Many thanks John for the info provided though.....

                            Geoff.
                            Nik Coleman, I'm the Director of the documentary. Thank you for your compliments expressed to the CAF about the programmes, sadly not expressed here. The Wing Leader of the CAF Centex group took time out of his day keeping the aircraft, veterans and public happy in Caen, where he's understandably busy, to answer your enquiry about a single frame grab on an obscure website from months back.

                            Firstly, it's a documentary series made to the best of our currently available knowledge for a general television viewing audience, it does not purport to be a definitive guide to restoring C-47s.

                            The use of the screen grab you show is nothing to do with us. It's from an early promo cut and I believe the voiceover at that point in the actual documentary says 'like so many others, in the boneyard at Basler'. Its clearly representative of the outside storage at Basler and we show, repeatedly, TAB as received in Basler in Vietnam replica paint scheme. That same sequence shows civil DC3s and a Super DC3.

                            The documentary first sight of TAB is in the hangar at Basler being stripped, thats where we saw her. The use of that image by whomever published it is erroneous but nothing to do with us.

                            Secondly a really good spot by you if that is a Japanese airfield being strafed (it may well be). The archive source had it listed as 'US Aircraft strafing assorted targets in France and Belgium, June 1944'. I'll have another look - whilst of course its important to you, and us, it is representative footage for the general viewing audience, so the less well informed viewer an understand what was going on. We have gone to great lengths to bring this story to the GENERAL PUBLIC, to further their understanding of this Great Crusade and to honour the fallen on all sides.

                            I'll let you into other shocking secrets. (I'm smiling here). The jump at Dallas happened before the sequence of the plane leaving San Marcos, and the wings going on at Basler happened three times. We are telling a story to inform and sometimes we have to tweak things little.

                            Perhaps you'll forgive us making a few seconds error in 320 hours of footage shot over three years and three countries, by me, and one other person, where a conventional production would have had a crew of 20. As you say, you may be nit picking - we all make mistakes even when information is right in front of us, and just 24 hours later we cant recall the real facts.

                            It even happens to contributors on this forum.

                            Nat Geo, the channel you say you saw it on, will be surprised to hear of these errors. Because it was on History Channel. You see, tiny errors are easy to make.

                            I love your enthusiasm and attention to detail and I'll be happy to add you to our preview group in future but I think in honesty, though it is in your opinion flawed, we should be applauded for bringing this story to the masses rather than have the public endure 'D-Days scariest ghosts' or 'Sex Guns and Sand - behind the D-Day headlines' - the sort of fare being offered up elsewhere.

                            Kind regards,

                            Nik

                            Comment

                            • Nik Coleman
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jul 2008
                              • 19

                              #15
                              Originally posted by JohnTerrell View Post
                              It's rather amusing the article's use of that first pic, of an abandoned-looking C-47, trying to make it seem as if that is as bad off as the aircraft was - it's not the same aircraft (nor was it in that bad of shape when the CAF acquired it from Basler).

                              This is how it looked up to right before the restoration by the CAF got started (where it had been sitting only since 2008): https://www.flickr.com/photos/110881...3/39302394245/

                              The previous owner, who acquired the aircraft in 2002, and restored it into Vietnam "Spooky" gunship configuration and paint scheme, was aware that it was likely used in D-Day, but didn't know the full depth of its assignments/missions during the war, and I recall he had the aircraft configured/painted the way it was so as to honor a friend who was killed in the Vietnam war. I was lucky enough to see it perform at an airshow in 2005, at which time it looked fantastic in the gunship configuration and paint scheme. By 2007, the owner began trying to sell the aircraft to other operators, but couldn't find any takers, and thus in 2008 sold it to Basler, who in turn would be able to make a profit off of converting it into a turbo-prop. While in storage with Basler, the full story of the aircraft's involvement in D-Day become known - had it been known when the previous owner was trying to sell it, he likely would have had a number of interested buyers and it wouldn't have ended up at Basler.
                              This is entirely correct and that screen grab was lifted from our promo where it appeared as representative of conditions in Baslers boneyard where I've spent a lot of time. Our opening shots of TAB in the documentary clearly show her as per your photo. Thats lazy journalism by whomever grabbed and published it. Nik

                              Comment

                              • Nik Coleman
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jul 2008
                                • 19

                                #16
                                Originally posted by ZRX61 View Post
                                TFC pulled 12 blades by hand on their B25 & I've pulled 12 on a 3350 (along with a few other people) It's basically to check the engine won't hydraulic lock on the starter & to squeeze any oil into the exhaust stacks so it ends up along the sides of the fuselage or all over the ramp instead of bending a rod or blowing a jug off.
                                You see, I was there, I made the documentary, I even pulled a prop through with everyone else and I still wondered why Paul in the right seat said that! You live and learn. I believe he's actually counting the turns on the starter as opposed to hand turns I think, but had no idea what the counting was. Included it as it was a nice sequence.

                                Comment

                                • Vintage
                                  Rank 3 Registered User
                                  • Aug 2018
                                  • 28

                                  #17
                                  Inertia starters, such as the "Eclipse" type, have a multi-plate steel/bronze spring loaded clutch that slips at a pre-determined torque to avoid overload of the starter gears and components. This type of inertia starter was widely copied by Bosch, under licence and then without licence, for use on most WW2 German aero-engines. Slipping clutches can be incorporated into most starters. However, hydraulic lock is not reliably avoided by starter clutches. The key factor is to follow the engine operating instructions for the engine type. Radials, with their small-bore inlet manifolds, are particularly prone to hydraulic lock of the lower cylinders. It is not unknown for certain engines to "Pass" a pull-through check and even, a plugs-out check but, to fall foul of a hydraulic lock on start when, a "slug" of cold oil is drawn into the lower cylinder(s) from the inlet pipe by the initial blast of airflow. Interestingly, some inverted V-12's with their large volume underslung inlet manifolds were nonetheless relatively free from hydraulic lock and only need a precautionary pull-through, enough to cycle all cylinders, in case of drain down from the cylinder itself. Additionally, most engines are not pulled through when warm, for obvious reasons. However, as said before, follow the precise instructions in the engine manual!

                                  V

                                  Comment

                                  • ZRX61
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • May 2005
                                    • 4715

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Nik Coleman View Post

                                    You see, I was there, I made the documentary, I even pulled a prop through with everyone else and I still wondered why Paul in the right seat said that! You live and learn. I believe he's actually counting the turns on the starter as opposed to hand turns I think, but had no idea what the counting was. Included it as it was a nice sequence.
                                    .
                                    You still count the blades when spinning them over with the starter, it just happens quicker. Also count blades on Merlins, but that has to do with fuel priming & when to turn the mags on. Merlins are surprisingly easy to start. Next time you're filming around a P51, ask if they will let you fire it up when needed. The only difference is some people give the primer a 3 second squirt & some give it 3 quick squirts. The latter works for me.
                                    If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                                    Comment

                                    • Ant.H
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jan 2000
                                      • 3048

                                      #19
                                      Many thanks for all the replies on this, it makes very interesting reading. Neat little system on the TFC Tigercat, that's one aircraft I really miss on the UK circuit! Thanks ZRX.

                                      Apologies to the IP for dragging things a bit off-topic!
                                      "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease." Sergei Sikorsky

                                      Comment

                                      • 1batfastard
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2013
                                        • 3360

                                        #20
                                        Hi All,
                                        Nik - Many thanks for the e-mails you sent in reply and for enlightening me on the difficulties you face in actually producing a documentary for the viewing public at large let alone for the enthusiast. I have deleted the comment as I now have a better appreciation of the documentary film makers art ( Not at all what I thought/Assumed ) from subject matter concept to final product ready for the screen, it was a small but fascinating insight into you and your team's operation along with having a better respect of film makers such as yourself as a whole......

                                        Geoff.
                                        Last edited by 1batfastard; 16th June 2019, 17:51.

                                        Comment

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