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  • ZRX61
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • May 2005
    • 4731

    Mechanic licensing for people working on vintage aircraft?

    What's the current deal? Is it covered by the CAA or EASA regs? Question came up on a FB mechanic group after a position for Maintenance/Restoration Grand Poobah at Old Warden was posted.
    If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.
  • ZRX61
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • May 2005
    • 4731

    #2
    270+ views & no one has a clue? Are there no UK aircraft restorers/mechanics on here?
    If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

    Comment

    • G-ASSV
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Dec 2008
      • 73

      #3
      It very much depends on whether the aircraft in question still has the technical support of the original manufacturer. i.e. Cessna or a subsequent company that's holds the design authority, i.e. Textron, these are operated with a CAA or EASA Certificate of Airworthiness, or in the case of some warbird types a CAA Permit to Fly, and have to be worked on by an approved organisation with suitably qualified engineers. For older aircraft this can still be the case. However, where there's no continuation then the aircraft are considered orphans and as such most are operated on a Permit to Fly, the administration of which is delegated by the CAA to the Light Aircraft Association. For these types, certain aspects of the aircraft's maintenance schedule, or repairs, can be performed by the owner, or a suitably experienced individual, under the supervision of an engineering inspector. However, there are weight and powerplant limitations to this arrangement, and I would expect most of the lighter types at Old Warden would be on an LAA Permit to Fly, the more powerful or complex types such as the Comet, Provost, Spitfire, Lysander, etc. would be operated on a CAA Permit to Fly.

      Comment

      • Stirling
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Mar 2011
        • 19

        #4
        Great OP to a subject area I seek clarity on also, so what's the best approach to gaining skills to work on the Certificates of airworthiness and CAA permit to fly types of warbird aircraft? Is it to get a grounding working on older ga types cessna piper etc ? Would there be formal qualifications neccessary (i.e. relevant to vintage types) and which ones (EASA? ) for airframe and powerplant? Or is it better to get involved on the lighter PFA types

        Comment

        • Fournier Boy
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Mar 2007
          • 1031

          #5
          Best way is to have experience of working on anything and apply to see how far you can get. Experience in types is getting harder and harder to find. Ideally wood and fabric or metal working skills preferred over license requirements.

          Comment

          • Stirling
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Mar 2011
            • 19

            #6
            OK, it appears as I suspected that refreshingly, unlike many things in this increasingly regulated world, it's not about the piece of paperwork qualification you have but about the actual demonstratable skills - but as you say getting skills is harder and harder

            can anybody suggest anywhere in the north west of England where classic aircraft restoration and operation is underway as from what ive seen it is particularly absent up here?

            Comment

            • ZRX61
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • May 2005
              • 4731

              #7
              Originally posted by G-ASSV View Post
              It very much depends on whether the aircraft in question still has the technical support of the original manufacturer. i.e. Cessna or a subsequent company that's holds the design authority, i.e. Textron, these are operated with a CAA or EASA Certificate of Airworthiness, or in the case of some warbird types a CAA Permit to Fly, and have to be worked on by an approved organisation with suitably qualified engineers. For older aircraft this can still be the case. However, where there's no continuation then the aircraft are considered orphans and as such most are operated on a Permit to Fly, the administration of which is delegated by the CAA to the Light Aircraft Association. For these types, certain aspects of the aircraft's maintenance schedule, or repairs, can be performed by the owner, or a suitably experienced individual, under the supervision of an engineering inspector. However, there are weight and powerplant limitations to this arrangement, and I would expect most of the lighter types at Old Warden would be on an LAA Permit to Fly, the more powerful or complex types such as the Comet, Provost, Spitfire, Lysander, etc. would be operated on a CAA Permit to Fly.
              What about the license for the mechanic? I saw something about BCAR(?) but it was a bit vague.
              If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

              Comment

              • ZRX61
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • May 2005
                • 4731

                #8
                Originally posted by Fournier Boy View Post
                Best way is to have experience of working on anything and apply to see how far you can get. Experience in types is getting harder and harder to find. Ideally wood and fabric or metal working skills preferred over license requirements.
                Last time I had to come up with a list covering *experience* I ended up with 70 different types from 12 different countries.. which was WAY more than I was thinking before I sat down to come up with the list. There was some rare stuff (N3N, Sipa 200, Reno Unlimiteds etc).
                If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                Comment

                • Stirling
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 19

                  #9
                  OK, so clarity sake taking a familiar example Supermarine Spitfire in UK operation is it a CAA CofA or CAA PtF aircraft ? what formal qualifications does each of the following require:

                  Volunteer (unpayed) rookie (is this legally allowed if an approved maintenance org is stipulated for type/ are there work arounds ?)
                  Employed mechanic
                  Employed inspector
                  Chief Tech

                  Comment

                  • ZRX61
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • May 2005
                    • 4731

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Stirling View Post
                    OK, so clarity sake taking a familiar example Supermarine Spitfire in UK operation is it a CAA CofA or CAA PtF aircraft ? what formal qualifications does each of the following require:

                    Volunteer (unpayed) rookie (is this legally allowed if an approved maintenance org is stipulated for type/ are there work arounds ?)
                    Employed mechanic
                    Employed inspector
                    Chief Tech
                    Volunteer just needs to be mechanically apt, but there's a whole list of stuff they're not allowed to do (inspections, sign stuff off etc)

                    Chief Tech would be the Pete Rushens & John Romains of the world. Pete was RAF & BBMF, I think John did some kind of apprenticeship?.. However, I'm not familiar with what pieces of wallpaper or licenses they have.
                    If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                    Comment

                    • Fournier Boy
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Mar 2007
                      • 1031

                      #11
                      All warbird Spitfires in the U.K. are operating on CAA PtF, signatories on these hold company authorisations issued by the overseeing Part 23/25 organisation responsible for the maintenance. Acceptance to hold those authorisations are granted to candidates with suitable knowledge and experience on type. Other non-signatory engineers are permitted to work on these types under supervision.

                      FB

                      Comment

                      • ZRX61
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • May 2005
                        • 4731

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Fournier Boy View Post
                        All warbird Spitfires in the U.K. are operating on CAA PtF, signatories on these hold company authorisations issued by the overseeing Part 23/25 organisation responsible for the maintenance. Acceptance to hold those authorisations are granted to candidates with suitable knowledge and experience on type. Other non-signatory engineers are permitted to work on these types under supervision.

                        FB
                        So a persons ability to work on & sign off work is dependent on the company they work for? Would someone who works at (ferinstance) Duxford for *Company A* on Spitfires not be allowed to freelance at another airfield for a private owner & work on his Spitfire? Under FAA regs I could fly to the UK, perform & sign off a 100hr inspection on a P51 that was registered in the US.
                        Last edited by ZRX61; 27th May 2019, 18:28.
                        If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                        Comment

                        • Stirling
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 19

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Fournier Boy View Post
                          All warbird Spitfires in the U.K. are operating on CAA PtF, signatories on these hold company authorisations issued by the overseeing Part 23/25 organisation responsible for the maintenance. Acceptance to hold those authorisations are granted to candidates with suitable knowledge and experience on type. Other non-signatory engineers are permitted to work on these types under supervision.

                          FB


                          Thanks for the info - just to be clear can you clarify; is it the Part 23/25 organisation or the CAA that grants these authorisations to candidates?

                          Comment

                          • Fournier Boy
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 1031

                            #14
                            First answer, no you cant freelance. You are signing on a company approval and therefore any aircraft worked on has to have a maintenance agreement with a part 23/25.

                            Second answer, mech stamps up to Release to service sign offs are approved internally within the company by the chief Engineer and Accountable manager and where needed with any guidance from the Quality manager. Permit Renewal authorisations are only approved by the CAA. Most U.K. organisations will only have 1 or 2 individuals within it who have a permit renewal authorisation.

                            if you are really interested in such things download CAP 1640 from the CAA website - dem is da rules innit.

                            Comment

                            • ZRX61
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • May 2005
                              • 4731

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Fournier Boy View Post
                              if you are really interested in such things download CAP 1640 from the CAA website - dem is da rules innit.
                              That's what I was looking for

                              Altho when I googled "CAP 1640" it returned a bunch of links of a painting by Rembrant in 1640 featuring some sort of hat..

                              If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                              Comment

                              • Hooligan
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Mar 2017
                                • 434

                                #16
                                Altho when I googled "CAP 1640" it returned a bunch of links of a painting by Rembrant in 1640 featuring some sort of hat..
                                Does it need restoring?

                                Comment

                                • TonyT
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Oct 2006
                                  • 8995

                                  #17
                                  My BCAR licences covers all piston engines, in any aircraft, however I would be a fool to say sign off at multi row radial without having worked on it and gained experience..

                                  Interesting when you mentioned

                                  Last time I had to come up with a list covering *experience* I ended up with 70 different types from 12 different countries.. which was WAY more than I was thinking before I sat down to come up with the list. There was some rare stuff (N3N, Sipa 200, Reno Unlimiteds etc).
                                  The EU a operate group coverage system as in a way did BCARs

                                  On my EASA Licences

                                  Now not counting the odds and sods I hold outside these groups, I hold amongst other things, group 3 and group 2a.

                                  List here https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-...enance-licence

                                  Start counting from 908 and finish at 2041....that alone is 1,133 variations of aircraft and or engine combinations on my licence! and to be honest, I read though a lot of them and had to look them up on the web to see what they were.

                                  When I went through my experience list though I probably came up with a similar amount, if not a few more. Rarer stuff includes L39's, Fuga, Spits, Chippies, Stearman, Devons and Mustangs, I even did the radio racking for the Virgin trans some sea/ocean balloon flight, though I think mine came down in the drink, so we don't mention that one .
                                  Last edited by TonyT; 29th May 2019, 13:08.

                                  Comment

                                  • ZRX61
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • May 2005
                                    • 4731

                                    #18
                                    Several years back the FAA decided to issue type ratings instead of LOA's for warbirds. Big meeting at Reno..

                                    FAA bloke says "You need 5 takeoffs & landings for a type rating"

                                    Art Vance stands up & says "I've got 5 takeoffs, 4 landings & a bail out in a Corsair, does that count?"

                                    After everyone stopped laughing & some discussion it was decided that it did.
                                    If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                                    Comment

                                    • ZRX61
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • May 2005
                                      • 4731

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by TonyT View Post
                                      My BCAR licences covers all piston engines, in any aircraft, however I would be a fool to say sign off at multi row radial without having worked on it and gained experience..

                                      Interesting when you mentioned



                                      The EU a operate group coverage system as in a way did BCARs

                                      On my EASA Licences

                                      Now not counting the odds and sods I hold outside these groups, I hold amongst other things, group 3 and group 2a.

                                      List here https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-...enance-licence

                                      Start counting from 908 and finish at 2041....that alone is 1,133 variations of aircraft and or engine combinations on my licence! and to be honest, I read though a lot of them and had to look them up on the web to see what they were.


                                      When I went through my experience list though I probably came up with a similar amount, if not a few more. Rarer stuff includes L39's, Fuga, Spits, Chippies, Stearman, Devons and Mustangs, I even did the radio racking for the Virgin trans some sea/ocean balloon flight, though I think mine came down in the drink, so we don't mention that one .
                                      According to that list I may have to rethink my list. I included all models of Bonanza as one type, not the 4 different models I've worked on.. altho with that said it was one each of four models... one or two times (couple of weeks or so for Annuals or 100hr). I think for the sake of simplicity I'll keep *Bonanza* as one type/model

                                      If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                                      Comment

                                      • TonyT
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Oct 2006
                                        • 8995

                                        #20
                                        Before we joined LaLa Land life was so much easier, we Brits did it on max take off weight, then if metal, if pressurised etc or retracts etc, So it your licence covered say below 5700KG MTW a retractable and pressurised every aircraft under that was covered, similar with engines.

                                        Then we got the system above and everytime a company is sold they update the list, so Cessna becomes Textron etc, and early on they would shuffle aircraft around into different categories so you never knew where you were.

                                        Comment

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