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Inconspicuous Little Biplane for You to name

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  • Romantic Techno
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jul 2010
    • 228

    Inconspicuous Little Biplane for You to name

    Hi all,

    another find ín the Flickr account of the San Diego Air and Space Museum, but not yet in my collection (well, at least I think so). Pleas have a look at the picture. In the right background there is something seemingly to be a Douglas DT-2, written on its side Is "NAF Philadelphia".

    Do you know the type? Thank you for every answer!

    Regards, RTClick image for larger version

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  • Sabrejet
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Mar 2010
    • 1728

    #2
    DH.9 with Liberty engine.

    Comment

    • Planemike
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Dec 2007
      • 1797

      #3
      No idea what is might be but it is way too small for a deH 9.......

      Comment

      • DazDaMan
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Aug 2003
        • 18679

        #4
        Background aircraft - JN-4 with a Hispano engine?
        Daren Cogdon

        Spitfire fanatic

        Comment

        • Hooligan
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Mar 2017
          • 434

          #5
          Standard J? Like the little thing in the foreground whatever it is.

          Comment

          • Lingo Dog
            Rank 3 Registered User
            • Oct 2018
            • 89

            #6
            No idea what the little biplane with radial engine might be but its a De H 4 behind it.

            Comment

            • Baldeagle
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Feb 2006
              • 197

              #7
              Bellanca CE with Anzani engine.
              DH-4 in background.



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              Comment

              • J Boyle
                With malice towards none
                • Oct 2004
                • 9733

                #8
                To be a bit more specific...
                the Naval Aircraft Factory rebuilt 80 wartime DH-4s into modernized DH-4Bs, which featured several features of the DH-9s.
                The government bought so many wartime DH-4 "Liberty Planes" that the Congress demanded they be used so many were rebuilt and modernized post war...an example being the DH-4Ms with Boeing-built steel tube fuselages.

                At one time it was Navy policy to have the NAF build 10% of its aircraft, whoever the original designer, in part to keep a check on costs (to learn what it did cost to build a design).

                As far as the small aircraft...while it does have some features in common with the Bellanca (like the non-parallel wing struts) it has a different tail from the Bellanca photos I've found. So, it might be an early version or a different type.
                At any rate, it's obscure and rare, it did not receive an A.T.C. post-1928.
                Last edited by J Boyle; 17th May 2019, 13:35.
                There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

                Comment

                • Ex Brat
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Mar 2013
                  • 240

                  #9
                  At bit like an early Gere biplane, although I think the picture may pre date it.
                  Last edited by Ex Brat; 17th May 2019, 18:43.

                  Comment

                  • Baldeagle
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Feb 2006
                    • 197

                    #10
                    The Gere is very different.
                    It is a Bellanca CE, vertical tail shape notwithstanding.


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                    • Romantic Techno
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jul 2010
                      • 228

                      #11
                      Thank you for the answers. But, sorry to say, I disagree to the solution "Bellanca CE". The mismatching tail shape was already mentioned, also the struts supporting the upper wing also are not the Bellanca's ones. In the position of the x-shapes wires the Bellanca has, the obscure aircraft shows another set of struts!

                      But anyway, thanks again.

                      Regards, RT

                      Comment

                      • Baldeagle
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Feb 2006
                        • 197

                        #12
                        You're certainly free to draw an incorrect conclusion, what are internet forums for? However, I checked with the Hagerstown Aviation Museum, and they confirmed that the aircraft in the photo is in fact a Bellanca CE, built in Hagerstown. In fact that particular one belonged to famous pilot Clarence Chamberlain.



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                        Comment

                        • Romantic Techno
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jul 2010
                          • 228

                          #13
                          Hi Baldeagle,


                          thank you for your efforts. My comments:

                          1) You didn't mention the Hagerstown Museum before. I am used to confirm a solution by googling for it. Doing this for the Bellanca CE, I find differring pictures, none showing the aircraft in the configuration in the picture I posted.
                          2) How do they know in the museum this particular type is the shown one? Who told you this? Does he quote from a book?
                          3) Do they have more pictures or other evidences to prove this claim?
                          4) The Hagerstown Museum runs a website about the Bellanca CE: https://www.hagerstownaviationmuseum.org/bellanca-ce.html The aircraft I posted is not to be seen.
                          5) Aerofiles says: "...
                          one 1p known as CE Sport [302V], and several incomplete constructions, purchased at auction by Clarence Chamberlain when Maryland Pressed Steel Co filed bankruptcy in 1920." Not saying a special one was produced for Clarence Chamberlain.
                          6) I surely could label the aircraft "Bellanca CE Chambelain Special". But I still would like to know if this is correct.

                          Thank you for understanding and maybe futher efforts.

                          Regards RT

                          Comment

                          • Ex Brat
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Mar 2013
                            • 240

                            #14
                            Google/Aerofiles are not the font of all knowledge. While many articles contain source reference, the sources are usually ‘secondary’ at best. In my own area of study I often see these references, often from well known books, as being incorrect.

                            I am with Baldeage on this one.

                            It’s also worth noting that Bellanca modified DH 4 aircraft for mail services. That may help put the photograph in context.
                            Last edited by Ex Brat; 19th May 2019, 08:12.

                            Comment

                            • Baldeagle
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Feb 2006
                              • 197

                              #15
                              I didn't mention the Hagerstown museum because I didn't need to ask them to know that it was a Bellanca CE. The fuselage, wings, struts, undercarriage, engine, and horizontal tails are clearly Bellanca CE. Just putting a different fin and rudder on it and fairings over the rigging cables (not struts) doesn't make it a different type. Since there were skeptics I confirmed it with a contact at the museum. They have several photos of it in that configuration, and believe that Chamberlain brought it back to Hagerstown and had Kreider and Reisner put on a new fin and rudder that are half of a horizontal tail. In this configuration he flew it at the 1926 National Air Races in, guess where, Philadelphia.
                              It is simply a Bellanca CE. As Ex Brat says, this shows the limits of depending on the internet.



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                              Comment

                              • Romantic Techno
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jul 2010
                                • 228

                                #16
                                OK, Baldeagle, I put your words in the comment section of the picture anf leave it this way. Thanks once more.

                                Regards, RT

                                Comment

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