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Dec. 7th 1941...

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  • jack windsor
    Rank 5 Registered User

    Dec. 7th 1941...

    hi,
    one of those dates that changed history and the world... thanks yanks.
  • Sabrejet
    Rank 5 Registered User

    #2
    Here we go again. For those not conversant in cryptism, it's the anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack.

    Comment

    • J Boyle
      With malice towards none

      #3
      Or to put it in UK/Commonwealth-centric terms...the beginning of the official war in the Pacific and Southeast Asia.
      There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

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      • otis
        Rank 5 Registered User

        #4
        Should we be thanking the Japanese?

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        • J Boyle
          With malice towards none

          #5
          Yes, for getting America into the war.
          That night, Churchill said he "Slept the sleep of the saved and thankful."
          Last edited by J Boyle; 7th December 2018, 18:14.
          There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

          Comment

          • jack windsor
            Rank 5 Registered User

            #6
            hi,
            Sabrejet, why cryptism? anyone who's been through an education system over 15/20yrs ago, will have been taught what that date signifies... anyone who has forgotten or does not know and is interested enough will look it up. So the end result of those three positions is remembering, what happened, to who, and by who, its the least we can do...

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            • Malcolm McKay
              Rank 5 Registered User

              #7
              It is important to be aware of significant past events and naturally the date but technically speaking the Americans had already become involved in the European war by late 1941 with their aggressive patrols protecting convoys. Lend/Lease was happening and whatever the economic harm it caused to Britain (part of the intention, given trade issues) it was speeding up the supply of war material to Britain. Pearl Harbour was not a bolt out of the blue - the US and Britain were well aware of Japanese aims for Pacific and East Asian domination.

              That had been apparent for many years and a Pearl Harbour style attack somewhere was inevitable and in fact similar actions had been happening in China for several years before. Shanghai, Nanjing etc. The evidence tends to show that the US was eager to prevent the Japanese expansion but lacked a suitable trigger - the loss of a few semi-obsolete battleships with what by the standards of WW2 was pretty minimal casualties provided the necessary trigger and just by happenstance the important vessels, the carriers and their accompanying task force, were at sea.

              In real terms as far as the defeat of Fascism goes it was the Battle of Britain that saved the West. If Britain had fallen and the British Government and the fleet had been forced to evacuate to Canada I doubt if the US would have bothered with fighting the Germans. The Dulles Brothers and their right wing supporters and colleagues in the American Government would have quickly done what they actually did do as the war progressed, which was make their secretive deals to bolster German industry and protect its connections in the US. An undefeated Luftwaffe plus a German Army backed by not having to guard its back against attack from the British Isles would have easily rolled right over the Russians who in 1940 and early 1941 were disastrously weakened by the Stalin purges.

              So in a way Pearl Harbour was important to the fight against Fascism in the real politik of 1940 - 1941 in that it forced the US to do the right thing instead of relying on manipulative trade deals (either through Lend/Lease or the Dulles network helping to bolster German production). Without it, if for instance the Japanese struck at Singapore leaving Pearl Harbour alone I'm fairly sure the outcome would have been less optimistic. Pearl Harbour forced the US to abandon its flirtation with trying to fight a trade war rather than a real one.

              Comment

              • J Boyle
                With malice towards none

                #8
                I'm not sure if I agree with your assessment of "...pretty minimal casualties..." .

                The U.S. was clearly unprepared for the war in the Pacific, they thought Germany would be the enemy. Witness the specifications for the B-36 and B-29 being written before the U.S. entered the war.

                The Pearl Harbor attack should mean something to UK. history enthusiasts, as I previously mentioned, it should have been a warning to UK forces in the region. As of Dec.7 the clock was clearly ticking for loss of Singapore and of course the loss a few days later of the HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse. You can take the early UK losses as either a result of being preoccupied with the war in Europe, or underestimating the Japanese, or both.
                Last edited by J Boyle; 8th December 2018, 00:33.
                There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

                Comment

                • John Green
                  Rank 5 Registered User

                  #9
                  MM

                  How very correct.

                  JB

                  The American Govt. imposed oil embargo was, for the Japs, the final straw. An examination of Japanese signals traffic and military activity for about one year prior to Dec. 7. showed their intent to be on the march in the South and South East Pacific.

                  British losses ? Your explanation is correct. Indecisive leadership coupled with insufficient military assets in the region, plus underestimation of the opposing forces ensured Britain's defeat.

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