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By: - 30th July 2001 at 17:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
apply to bae and they will send you a copy of the sales brochure made for this aircraft, i havea copy and it is very interesting!! it is a pity this aircraft did not enter service, and i believe that the whole scrapping of the project was a money saving excercises by politicians who did not fully realise what they were doing, shame, but you would never have needed an aircraft that big, and it has led to the tornado which, whilst coming in for some stick is a very capable aircraft-put ej2000 engines in and it would become even more potent.
coanda:7
By: - 30th July 2001 at 19:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
From what I have read and seen I think I would have to agree with coanda.It is far too often the case that politicians do not know anything like enough about what they are ordering,or more accurately,what they are cancelling.One or two other examples spring to mind,one being the English Electric Lightning. Douglas Sandys,the defence minister of the time agreed to continue development of the aircraft because "unfortunatley it has gone too far to cancel".Can you imagine where we might be if we had not had the Lightning?Having umpteen crashes in F-104's perhaps.
Its worth bearing in mind that the Lightning made it into service by the skin of it's teeth,despite it being possibly the most potent interceptor of it's day.
By: - 2nd August 2001 at 19:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
The size of the TSR.2 would have worked to its advantage as it should have been operated in a similar way to a Vulcan. The concept was a good one but unfortunately she ran late and had problems which ultimately was her downfall. I saw the program- what a wonderful sight she was!!
By: - 3rd August 2001 at 03:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
interesting topic. What ever happened to the large amount of tsr2 wing sections, engines and ground equipment that was seen on the ranges at shoeburyness in 1989?
By: - 3rd August 2001 at 12:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
I was talking with an NTL engineer yesterday (2nd Aug)who is doing some work on our 999 ambulance radio system. He is an instructor with the air cadets up in Aldridge in the Midlands. He was saying that a few years ago there were a few large bits and pieces of TSR2 in a scrap yard in the Great Barr area (Birmingham), along with other aircraft parts. He did mention the name of the scrappy, but I've forgotten it (Duh!!). If I see him again, I'll chase it up. If only......! :9
UKMAMS
By: - 3rd August 2001 at 17:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
I fear that the parts at Foulness have been scrapped. A few years ago I visited Pendine and saw a large wing section there
but it's been scrapped sadly since then.
By: - 12th August 2001 at 09:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
I agree that the TSR.2 is a lovely aircraft that was never allowed to reach its full potential...but whilst the politicians certainly had a substantial part to play in the aircraft's downfall, the companies behind the TSR.2 did little to improve th project's chances...a lack of communication between the companies meant the first flight of the prototype was delayed on several occasions...had the initial flight gone ahead as originally planned, the aircraft may have had a better chance of surviving...
It is a common misconception that the Labour government who cancelled the project was responsible for the aircraft's demise, but this is not the case...the bare bones of the project were first set out in 1955, 8 years before Labour came to power...the Conservative government set up a number of committees to 'oversee' the project, which in reality just interferred and caused substantial delays to the project, and allowed the cost of the project to escalate out of control...by the time Labour came to power in 1963, the estimated cost of each individual aircraft had increased way beyond initial estimates...remember that the war had finished less than 20 years earlier and the country was still trying to rebuild itself...although Macmillan claimed that Britain "had never had it so good", there was still a lot of work to be done on rebuilding Britain...the Labour government of the time felt that the costs of the project could not be justified so they cancelled it...even leading Labour ministers such as Roy Jenkins thought the aircraft was a marvellous design but could not see the aircraft developing in the political climate of the time...
All was not lost completely with the TSR.2...features and ideas were incorporated into aircraft such as the Jaguar and Tornado, and I believe Concorde's engines were a development of the engines built for the TSR.2...if any one wants to take issue with anything I have written here, please feel free! The TSR.2 was the subject of my dissertation and I would love to discuss it further!
By: - 12th August 2001 at 14:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
Exactly what are they doing to the TSR.2 at Duxford. Making it more complete with engines e.t.c? I hope so..........
Paul.
By: - 12th August 2001 at 16:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
Thanks for that reply. I still feel that the Government of the time was 'persuaded' scrap the TSR2 by the US. They had the F111 to flog and any competition would not be welcome. Maybe it was not the case and TV is notorious for giving biased viewpoints but it just seemed too much of a coincidence.
Roy Jenkins was on the programme and he did state that the UK aircraft industry should concentrate on building and selling aircraft not developing them. I did not imagine that bit. A very blinkered attitude from a minister of the day. With that sort of logic in charge of Aviation matters (he was the Minister for Aviation if I remember correctly) it's little wonder the thing was scrapped.
And as for developments from the TSR2?. Well the manufacturers wanted to keep the 2 prototypes flying to use as testbeds but Jenkins said no. The costs would just spiral out of control £1 million becoming £2 million becoming £4 million and so on. Perhaps he was right with the state of the industry being what it was.
An interesting programme though.
Now where are we with the Euro Fighter.......................
Bob
By: - 12th August 2001 at 22:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
In my very humble onion.....er ,opinion ,the TSR 2 just didn't look right.
We've all heard that old saying....
"If it doesn't look right,it doesn't fly right",
well I think it was true about the TSR 2
We are talking about the Swordfish prototype aren't we? LOL
;-) }>
By: - 13th August 2001 at 08:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
In reply to Paul Cushion...Duxford's TSR.2 has just been given a good look over and is now back in Hanger 1...there are no plans that I know of to install engines in the aircraft or anything like that...
By: - 13th August 2001 at 23:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
the aussies haven't had that many problems with the f-111 they seam to love it. to me sounds more multirole than the TSR 2. just looking at the figures i have the 111 can carrry 14000 kg of stuff and the TSR 2 around 4500 kg. to me this is a huge difference.
i do think the 1957 defence white paper was wrong but the economy of the country was screwed. the planes that got past this the bucc and the lighting weren't multirole like a contemparies of their time (mirage iii, f4, etc) so the uk aviation industry didn't have that much going for it (don't get me wrong they are great aircraft).
rabie :9
By: - 14th August 2001 at 17:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
whilst the company did have a lack of good communication which stalled the development of the aircraft in the early stages, i still feel that the aircraft had made sufficient development by the time the decision was made, for it to have carried on and perhaps become a world leader, in the end it was labour governments greed for saving money that cost the british air industry soo much, and put the final nail in the coffin of an all english aircraft, this in effect shot the country in the foot, since it was this national aircraft production which was sought when the aircraft companies were privatised, and had to group together-old rivalry didnt go away, and on the whole was a bad move on the governments part, in this case IMHO labour may well have been persuaded by the americans, in fact prob was to buy american F111's but I think the far reaching effects are somewhat worse than could have been, but who knows, can't play it differently now, we replaced it with a more than adequate aircraft which then led to the tornado, which, despite all the bull that has go on with the aircraft, in its role as strike attack recon is a world leader, and, admittedly a mediocre air superiority fighter.
coanda:7
By: - 4th September 2001 at 16:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
Bob, did you know that programme was available on video ?...DD/Video VHS DD1092.
As you say, it was a remarkable aircraft, years ahead of its time and killed by the Labour Government, with a lot of assistance from Lord Mountbaton. There is also an excellent book by Frank Barnett-Jones "TSR-2 Phoenix of Folly?".
Have you seen XR220 at Cosford....they received a lot of the components that were missing, and have attempted to rebuild the cockpits, together with the Avionics bay. I was fortunate enough when I visited, to be offered the cockpit ladder to have look round !!
Best wishes, Tony.
By: - 4th September 2001 at 18:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: TSR 2
Tony,
Thanks for the information - I did notice the DD Video logo at the end of the programme. I now have Sky so a whole new world of aviation related programmes await me!!!.
I did actually find a webpage that someone put together containing loads of cockpit photos for the info of aircraft modellers, at least I think that's what it was for.
On the subject of the TSR2, I see Duxford look like they are going to hang their example from the ceiling of the revamped Super Hangar!!! (see Duxford's Super Super-Hangar posting)
Regards Bob
Posts: 3,566
By: Bob - 30th July 2001 at 11:17
Not normally having access to Sky I was interested to see the documentary about the TSR 2 last night. It always struck me as a great aircraft and Roland Beaumonts description of the first flights seemed to confirm that. I feel the Labour Government of the day is really not telling us the whole truth about it's scrapping. It was intimated that the US put undue pressure on the UK to scrap it and take the F111 instead, in turn for it backing the UK's claim for aid from the IMF. As a result Australia cancelled their order for 30 aircraft and took the much troubled swing-wing.
I know the project was riddled with ineffiency from the word go but Roy Jenkins stating that the British aircraft industry was about making planes and selling them and not developing new types of aircraft is like saying we should still be flying around in Sopwith Camels. Shortsighted or what???
When you stand under the example at Duxford it makes you think. And I'm glad to see it is getting some long overdue care at last.
I wonder if in a few years time the truth will out??
Bob