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Who invented C/N?

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    #21
    Sabrejet, I agree with some of your comments, but not all of them. Serial number does not necessarily apply to the military equivalent of the civilian registration; it may be true in some services but in fact not for the RAF and RAAF. if you look at the record cards and such things, the form actually says registration (although often something like just 'aircraft'). The point is that the usual identifiers on the aircraft are actually registrations; The UK and Australian boards developed out of the same systems, and you have civil and military registrars and registrations.

    What you say about component serial numbers is absolutely true and extends to aircraft as well, and it just depends on what the manufacturer calls it. The point being what 'serial' means; these numbers are sequential and relate generally to the production sequence. Normally, an aircraft serial or construction number never changes, where as the registration, military or civilian, can change.

    Obviously I'm making generalisations and there are exceptions within the UK and Australia, and in some other countries this system just doesn't apply.
    Let your soul stand cool and composed before a million universes Walt Whitman
    http://vhjet.com

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      #22
      Planemike

      The thread title "Who invented C/N?" was intended to catch your attention as indeed it did! The original post ended with the question:

      So who was first to use it and when?
      Thus far there have been many helpful replies for which I am thankful.

      Rgds
      Regards

      Ron

      "History should always be studied in the morning, before anything else can happen."
      Charles M. Schulz 1923-2000

      Comment


        #23
        ZRX61 Please clarify. Using what by 1933?
        Construction numbers.
        If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

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          #24
          ZRX61

          Can you please provide an example of the US using "Construction Number" by 1933? That would be a significant contribution to the discussion.
          Regards

          Ron

          "History should always be studied in the morning, before anything else can happen."
          Charles M. Schulz 1923-2000

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            #25
            In use in 1928 in the UK

            Mark

            "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney"

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              #26
              http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1930.html
              If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

              Comment


                #27
                I the case of the Avro Cadet (1935) in the Irish Air Corps museum, the plate refers to the Manufacturers number.
                Tony K

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                  #28
                  ZRX61

                  Thank you for that link to Joe Baugher's excellent site. There are plenty of instances of MSN but I can't find any instances of C/N. Am I missing something?

                  Mark

                  Thanks for that document. Can you read the form number at top left? If the form number incorporates a printing date I expect it may predate 1928.
                  Regards

                  Ron

                  "History should always be studied in the morning, before anything else can happen."
                  Charles M. Schulz 1923-2000

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                    #29
                    MSN is the same as a CN. Sometimes it listed as MSN, other times as CN.
                    If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      ZRX61

                      I'm afraid you have missed the point of the discussion. The objective was to establish who first coined the term "Constructor's No" or "C/N".

                      That MSN and C/N represent the same number is well established. You appeared to be claiming American use of the term "C/N". I'll be very surprised if anyone can establish the use of "C/N" by an American agency or manufacturer.

                      Rgds
                      Regards

                      Ron

                      "History should always be studied in the morning, before anything else can happen."
                      Charles M. Schulz 1923-2000

                      Comment


                        #31
                        I gave you a link that lists literally thousands of examples. This thread is like pulling frigging teeth.

                        I'm done.
                        If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

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                          #32
                          ZRX61

                          I'm done.
                          Done listening apparently.
                          Regards

                          Ron

                          "History should always be studied in the morning, before anything else can happen."
                          Charles M. Schulz 1923-2000

                          Comment


                            #33
                            Mark

                            Thanks for that document. Can you read the form number at top left? If the form number incorporates a printing date I expect it may predate 1928.
                            Ron.

                            It appears that the original British Civil Register was re-written in 1939 on a document with form number dated 10/38.

                            Mark

                            "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney"

                            Comment


                              #34
                              I seem to remember that the CAA was rewritten in 1939 so the authorities had an idea what was really out there and current and available for being impressed in the event of war


                              Which is of course what happened


                              Paul
                              Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

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                                #35
                                Thanks Mark for the card for G-EAAA which clarifies the illegible stamp on the card for G-ACTF posted by Consul in post #6. That somebody went to the trouble of preparing a rubber stamp seems to confirm that there was a mass movement from a register to cards on 1 January 1939.

                                Rgds
                                Regards

                                Ron

                                "History should always be studied in the morning, before anything else can happen."
                                Charles M. Schulz 1923-2000

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  Although it does not answer the question of 'who invented c/n', I have attached the original article that Trevor Boughton wrote and published which discusses c/n versus msn, etc. Thanks to Trevor for providing permission to scan and share from Man and Aerial Machines. Not sure if you managed to dig up your copies of this, Ron - I noticed you contributed later on.
                                  Click image for larger version

Name:	Man & Aerial Machines 44 extracts OCR.jpg
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ID:	3680857
                                  I will add some more soon - will just concentrate on showing some of the ID plates.
                                  Let your soul stand cool and composed before a million universes Walt Whitman
                                  http://vhjet.com

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                                    #37
                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Man & Aerial Machines 45 extracts 1.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	447.0 KB
ID:	3680858
                                    Let your soul stand cool and composed before a million universes Walt Whitman
                                    http://vhjet.com

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                                      #38
                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Man & Aerial Machines 45 extracts 2.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	273.6 KB
ID:	3680859
                                      I hope people find these interesting enough not to worry about the size of them...
                                      I think it would be great if we had a thread where people just shared aircraft data plate images.
                                      Let your soul stand cool and composed before a million universes Walt Whitman
                                      http://vhjet.com

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Nicko

                                        Thank you for going to the trouble of posting those items from "Man and Aerial Machines". You have prompted me to refer to my copies and it appears that the discussion continues over 10 parts. This discussion concentrates mainly on the presentation of serial numbers on aircraft data plates from a range of manufacturers and does not attempt to address the origins of the term "Constructor's Number". Thought by some to be a latter day construct by aviation enthusiasts/historians, it now seems that the term has legitimacy dating from before WWII. I am in discussions with Trevor Boughton (author of MaAM) and it's beginning to look like the term could have been introduced as early as 1919. The search is ongoing but I do not expect to find anything that will invalidate the optional use of Constructor's Number or Manufacturer's Serial Number to define the same numerical identity.

                                        Rgds
                                        Regards

                                        Ron

                                        "History should always be studied in the morning, before anything else can happen."
                                        Charles M. Schulz 1923-2000

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                                          #40
                                          Thanks Ron.
                                          Let your soul stand cool and composed before a million universes Walt Whitman
                                          http://vhjet.com

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