Duxford Red Baron's Engine

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20 years 1 month

Posts: 1,285

Not really in my field of interest but a couple of years ago the engine in the below picture arrived at Duxford from the refurb of Lambeth at the time the engine came with a sign board saying it was from the Red Baron's Fatal Fokker Triplane crash over time as things were shuffled around the sign board vanished and engine remained with no identifier.

On visiting Duxford today I noticed the engine (finally) had a new sign board saying it is a Italian 6 Cylinder engine from a flying boat even though the engine clearly has the 9 cylinders standard to the triplane engine please can anyone shed any light on if this is indeed the Red Baron's engine or something that has become repeatedly miss labelled?

Thanks for any help you can give, i did ask the guides at Duxford and they were none the wiser.

curlyboy

https://s9.postimg.org/e2umv204b/IMG_4818.jpg

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Member for

16 years 2 months

Posts: 2,841

Someone there either doesn't know what they are talking about, doesn't care - or both.

Just look at the caption board, from which I quote: "this engine has six cylinders in-line, arranged in groups of two in copper water jackets. It has overhead camshafts and valves".

That very clearly does not relate to the engine it is positioned in front of, though it might possibly be the info for the engine on the left?

Anon.

Member for

17 years 6 months

Posts: 9,739

It certainly looks like it could be the same engine...

...although, if it is, it's lost an induction pipe and some pushrods over the years!

Did you get a note of the engine number?

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Member for

19 years 5 months

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It has been several years since I visited, but IIRC, the museum at Hawkinge had a German engine it said was off of the Baron's Fokker.

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16 years 2 months

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Its the new concept in museum labelling, logical placement and accuracy of information presented are 'so last century', but where possible mention slavery and the holocaust.

Member for

9 years 1 month

Posts: 78

Took these pictures at Legends 2014. I think that was not long after the engine, and I assume the description board, had arrived from Lambeth ?

Have reduced these in size to upload so not sure how big they will look on here !

Cheers Ron

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Member for

17 years 5 months

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It has been several years since I visited, but IIRC, the museum at Hawkinge had a German engine it said was off of the Baron's Fokker.

Standard military policy, ;) you would be surprised how much stuff is fitted to an aircraft when it plows in, it is a chance to lose all those bits that no one can find off inventories... The Atlantic Conveyor would have sank in Portsmouth harbour with all the equipment it was supposed to be carrying :D

Member for

9 years 1 month

Posts: 78

Regarding the Isotta Fraschini engine. At the time of the May 2017 Duxford display, that description board was lurking behind what I assumed was it's actual engine. Trouble is I have only a blurred partial view of it. Google produced link to this picture - courtesy of one Richard Crockett, along with links to details of the said engine.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/richard64pics/8500445515

Isotta Fraschini V.6, Italian six-cylinder, water-cooled, in-line piston aero engine. The V is for "Volo" or "flight" - not meaning it is a V six engine.

I do agree that it is very frustrating when the wrong board is sitting in front of the wrong exhibit ! Goodness knows what the many visitors from abroad think when they visit on display days.

I find it particularly frustrating that those large racks full of engines don't have some sort of description board by the walkway. I assume there must be some really interesting stories for the engines up there.

Member for

19 years 5 months

Posts: 9,821

TonyT. ...Standard military policy...
It has less to do with the military than the semi-crooks looking for profit...made all the more egregious with the advent of the internet.

Sadly,this forum gives some a place to advertise or legitimize (by identifying and providing "provenance") their wares

Back to sign placement...I took a friend to Duxford and he commented about the speed given for one aircraft. I didn't sound right, so I looked and the poor placement of a sign had him reading about one aircraft while directly looking at another. And no, he wasn't a confused OAP or excited schoolboy, rather the retired MD of a well-known UK firm.

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24 years 2 months

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Thanks for the acknowledgement RJH
Richard

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20 years 1 month

Posts: 1,285

Thanks for the replies it looks like the right engine but the wrong board, I had the same problem as J Boyle with a board in Hangar 2 being about the Mark XI spitfire but behind it was a Corsair it could be quite confusing for some but with the movements there it is not surprising.

I have contacted IWM Duxford about will let you know if I hear anything back.

Curlyboy

Member for

16 years 2 months

Posts: 2,841

At the risk of being labelled impatient - I hasten to remark that the old picture of the Baron's engine shows it to be the same engine as the Duxford item; missing and dented intake pipes included.

Anon.

Member for

17 years 6 months

Posts: 9,739

If it is the same engine then somebody at the IWM has dropped it at some point...

...look at the (dented) end of the propeller shaft in the later photograph!

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15 years 7 months

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Disgraceful that such a historic and valuable artifact is not on proper display and being treated with such carelessness.

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14 years 5 months

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Has anybody actually looked at the picture? You can see just by looking that it's just been shoved there temporally, it's on a pallet with probably the display base stacked in front? It's on 2X4's for the fork lift or pallet jack.............Mountain out of a mole hill comes to mind....................

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19 years

Posts: 2,656

minimans

You can't think logically like that. The whingers, moaners and museum complainers on here would then have nothing to whinge, moan and complain about.

Brian

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17 years 6 months

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I'm not concerned about the temporary display of this artefact, and I'd rather have it on temporary display than for it to disappear into storage for years.

But I am concerned about the damage that seems to have occurred to it since it has been in the care of the IWM; aren't you? I don't know when the black and white photograph of it was taken but it seems to have been dropped and to have lost one induction pipe and three pushrods since then; I hope these are safely in storage somewhere but who knows?

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10 years

Posts: 83

Seems surprising that it never made it back to Lambeth. If there's any name from WW1 that non-historian (or non-aviation expert) people would have heard of or relate to, it would be 'The Red Baron' and there has to be some 'wow' factor to displaying the engine from his plane.

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19 years 7 months

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Safe storage and Duxford don’t always go together. I am thinking of what happened to the fin and rudder of the Hermes.

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24 years 2 months

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Maybe we should all just celebrate the fact that the IWM let you into a working area and allow you to see objects in open storage.

So a lectern has ended up slightly to the right of the object it describes, so what.

Anne

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16 years 2 months

Posts: 2,841

In my book those responsible for the display should do their job properly and ensure that the placard relates to the object it is placed in front of.

We're OK, we can make an informed judgement about whether the information board relates to the object in front of it - or not. many people can't so it's debatable whether it is worth opening up the facility to the public if the organisers can't be bothered to get the signage right.

It's all very well to complain of the moaners and whingers from the comfort of your arm chair - but I know I'd be pretty pi**ed off if I was a teacher trying to make some sense of a poorly organised display in front of 30 children who all expect and believe the information to be correct. It's their job to get it right, it's not rocket science.

Anon.