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  • Spiteful
    Rank 5 Registered User

    #21
    Looking at the June 44 ORB, it looks like MJ454, MJ468, MJ125, MJ237, MJ831, MJ985, MJ474, MJ229, MJ905 were all with 411 sqn at the beginning of June.

    Comment

    • Mark12
      MEANS MOTIVE OPPORTUNITY

      #22
      411 Sqn had 36 'MJ' serial Spitfires in total.

      Mark
      "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney"

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      • Mark12
        MEANS MOTIVE OPPORTUNITY

        #23
        Originally posted by Spiteful
        Looking at the June 44 ORB, it looks like MJ454, MJ468, MJ125, MJ237, MJ831, MJ985, MJ474, MJ229, MJ905 were all with 411 sqn at the beginning of June.
        I am surprised that all these serials are in the ORB for early June. MT831 for example was lost in battle on 15 May 1944.

        We know that MK834 was DB-R and was lost on 19 May 1944. So what we are looking for is the replacement(s) DB-R from post 19 May until 5 June, the reported date of the photo.

        Only one of the above MJ serials fully fits the requirement...MJ229 allotted to 411 Squadron on 2 June.

        That said these were turbulent times and paperwork accuracy would not have been the highest priority. There is no date for the on charge date to 411 for MJ468 and MJ905 but both were lost on 25 and 20 June respectively. If they appear in the May 1944 ORB they can be eliminated.

        MJ454, MJ474 and MJ985 were not allotted to 411 Squadron until 22 June and can reasonably be eliminated.

        MJ125 and and MJ237 were not allotted to 411 Squadron and could have been 'borrowed' from 405 and 411 Aircraft Reception Flight.

        So, MJ229 is the best shot but certainly not 100% conclusive.

        Mark
        "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney"

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        • CAF-UK
          Rank 5 Registered User

          #24
          Hi Peter

          Link below has Spitfire IX MJ229 of 411 Squadron being lost on 2nd June 1944 with Fl/Lt R.W. Orr at the controls (see below map)

          http://aircrewremembered.com/hodgson-john.html

          Hit by flack and baled out over channel and was rescued

          cheers
          Chris

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          • tankbarrell
            Rank 5 Registered User

            #25
            As mentioned earlier though, those stripes look like they are being repainted, the inner white band still looking somewhat worn.

            Comment

            • R6915
              Rank 5 Registered User

              #26
              Looking at an enlarged photo image on computer screen in post # 15 and the hill beyond the top of the starboard wing it is very similar to today's view of the South Downs in the area around Halnaker windmill. One website

              http://www.bognor.co.uk/lifestyle/no...-day-1-4026025

              states that from the top of the Chichester Cathedral tower in 1944 nine airfields were visible. Five were established RAF airfields and four were ALG's. Most probably any of those nine sites could have provided a similar view. The inland coastal plain is very flat. I also note there's a serial number of the image shown in the bottom right hand corner - does that suggest any source / archive identity where an alternative view of the Spitfire in question might be uncovered?

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              • Mark12
                MEANS MOTIVE OPPORTUNITY

                #27
                Originally posted by CAF-UK
                Spitfire IX MJ229 of 411 Squadron being lost on 2nd June 1944
                Chris, Re-reading the data, indeed it does.

                I would now suggest that the image was taken some time after D-Day and the caption if 'official' was a convenient date for the media.

                This looks to be a posed image for propaganda purposes.

                The white paint looks to be being re-applied and the inner wing stripe is grubby and yet to receive its second application.

                Mark
                "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney"

                Comment

                • CAF-UK
                  Rank 5 Registered User

                  #28
                  The link below has the photo being taken on 22nd June 44 (scroll to sixth image)

                  http://www.thescale.info/news/publis...quadrons.shtml

                  Makes sense of the invasion stripes being reapplied

                  cheers
                  Chris

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                  • Nachtjagd
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    #29
                    Not Tangmere. It's Westhampnett.
                    A Thousand Shall Fall

                    Comment

                    • PeteP
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      #30
                      Just out of curiosity, what makes you think that? I can't find any reference to 411 being at Westhampnett although I guess some aircraft could have been dispersed there while the squadron was at Tangmere.

                      Also, if the date of 22 June for the photo given in the link in CAF-UK's post is correct, then it's unlikely to be at either Tangmere or Westhampnett - the squadron left on 18 June for France and began operating from B4 on 19/06.

                      P.

                      Comment

                      • bazv
                        olde rigger

                        #31
                        Even if the sqn did 'officially' move to B4 on the 18th - there would probably be 'stragglers' (ie a/c coming out of snags/servicing) flying out to B4 slightly later.
                        Also there would have been constant 'tooing and frowing' between france and the S of England at the time,and also quite possibly some a/c might have been flown back to Blighty for certain servicings etc,since facilities/equipment at B4 were probably limited.

                        Comment

                        • Moggy C
                          Moderator

                          #32
                          Alternatively, could the picture have been taken at B4?

                          Moggy
                          "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                          Comment

                          • PeteP
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            #33
                            Yes, I did wonder that myself but I'd always assumed those hills in the background were the South Downs. An unwarranted assumption perhaps?
                            P.

                            Comment

                            • beachcomber
                              Mike Brewser

                              #34
                              Here's picture of B4 taken in the summer 1944 notice the sparse grass looks quite similar to me:

                              http://www.forgottenairfields.com/fr...b-4-s1097.html
                              Pedantic I haven't been that for 4 minutes 36 secs
                              http://www.arc-design-it.co.uk

                              Comment

                              • bazv
                                olde rigger

                                #35
                                Background looks South Downsey to me as well - the area around Beny - sur - merde looks much flatterrer to me on Google street view.

                                rgds baz

                                Comment

                                • Nachtjagd
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  #36
                                  Pretty sure that's Lavant Down in the background, so the photo must have been taken in the NW corner of Westhampnett / Goodwood. The tree line has changed over the years but the hill hasn't (or at least it hadn't last time I walked the dog up there!)
                                  Last edited by Nachtjagd; 12th October 2017, 11:01.
                                  A Thousand Shall Fall

                                  Comment

                                  • PeteP
                                    Rank 5 Registered User

                                    #37
                                    You may well be right - I'm nowhere near as familiar with the view of the Downs from Goodwood as I am from Tangmere - but they always seem closer at Goodwood than they appear to be in this photo. I'll stick with Tangmere for the moment but - with apologies to the OP for the slight thread drift - I'm keen to hear any evidence to the contrary as I regularly use this photo in talks and would hate to think I was giving out incorrect info about it.

                                    P.

                                    Comment

                                    • arejay
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      #38
                                      on Saturday I took a couple of images of the downs from what would have been the south west end of tangmere airfield, the first is facing towards the control tower and onto the duncton area of the downs and the second is facing the trundle/lavant downClick image for larger version

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                                      • PeteP
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        #39
                                        Thanks arejay. Funnily enough I was going to do the same thing on Thursday but you've saved me a job.
                                        P.

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