Spitfire Photograph Question

[Spiteful]

Looking at the June 44 ORB, it looks like MJ454, MJ468, MJ125, MJ237, MJ831, MJ985, MJ474, MJ229, MJ905 were all with 411 sqn at the beginning of June.

[Mark12]

411 Sqn had 36 'MJ' serial Spitfires in total.

Mark

[Mark12]

Looking at the June 44 ORB, it looks like MJ454, MJ468, MJ125, MJ237, MJ831, MJ985, MJ474, MJ229, MJ905 were all with 411 sqn at the beginning of June.

I am surprised that all these serials are in the ORB for early June. MT831 for example was lost in battle on 15 May 1944.

We know that MK834 was DB-R and was lost on 19 May 1944. So what we are looking for is the replacement(s) DB-R from post 19 May until 5 June, the reported date of the photo.

Only one of the above MJ serials fully fits the requirement...MJ229 allotted to 411 Squadron on 2 June.

That said these were turbulent times and paperwork accuracy would not have been the highest priority. There is no date for the on charge date to 411 for MJ468 and MJ905 but both were lost on 25 and 20 June respectively. If they appear in the May 1944 ORB they can be eliminated.

MJ454, MJ474 and MJ985 were not allotted to 411 Squadron until 22 June and can reasonably be eliminated.

MJ125 and and MJ237 were not allotted to 411 Squadron and could have been 'borrowed' from 405 and 411 Aircraft Reception Flight.

So, MJ229 is the best shot but certainly not 100% conclusive.

Mark

[CAF-UK]

Hi Peter

Link below has Spitfire IX MJ229 of 411 Squadron being lost on 2nd June 1944 with Fl/Lt R.W. Orr at the controls (see below map)

http://aircrewremembered.com/hodgson-john.html

Hit by flack and baled out over channel and was rescued

cheers
Chris

[tankbarrell]

As mentioned earlier though, those stripes look like they are being repainted, the inner white band still looking somewhat worn.

[R6915]

Looking at an enlarged photo image on computer screen in post # 15 and the hill beyond the top of the starboard wing it is very similar to today's view of the South Downs in the area around Halnaker windmill. One website

http://www.bognor.co.uk/lifestyle/no...-day-1-4026025

states that from the top of the Chichester Cathedral tower in 1944 nine airfields were visible. Five were established RAF airfields and four were ALG's. Most probably any of those nine sites could have provided a similar view. The inland coastal plain is very flat. I also note there's a serial number of the image shown in the bottom right hand corner - does that suggest any source / archive identity where an alternative view of the Spitfire in question might be uncovered?

[Mark12]

Spitfire IX MJ229 of 411 Squadron being lost on 2nd June 1944

Chris, Re-reading the data, indeed it does.

I would now suggest that the image was taken some time after D-Day and the caption if 'official' was a convenient date for the media.

This looks to be a posed image for propaganda purposes.

The white paint looks to be being re-applied and the inner wing stripe is grubby and yet to receive its second application.

Mark

[CAF-UK]

The link below has the photo being taken on 22nd June ’44 (scroll to sixth image)

http://www.thescale.info/news/publis...quadrons.shtml

Makes sense of the invasion stripes being reapplied

cheers
Chris

[Nachtjagd]

Not Tangmere. It's Westhampnett.

[PeteP]

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think that? I can't find any reference to 411 being at Westhampnett although I guess some aircraft could have been dispersed there while the squadron was at Tangmere.

Also, if the date of 22 June for the photo given in the link in CAF-UK's post is correct, then it's unlikely to be at either Tangmere or Westhampnett - the squadron left on 18 June for France and began operating from B4 on 19/06.

P.

[bazv]

Even if the sqn did 'officially' move to B4 on the 18th - there would probably be 'stragglers' (ie a/c coming out of snags/servicing) flying out to B4 slightly later.
Also there would have been constant 'tooing and frowing' between france and the S of England at the time,and also quite possibly some a/c might have been flown back to Blighty for certain servicings etc,since facilities/equipment at B4 were probably limited.

[Moggy C]

Alternatively, could the picture have been taken at B4?

Moggy

[PeteP]

Yes, I did wonder that myself but I'd always assumed those hills in the background were the South Downs. An unwarranted assumption perhaps?
P.

[beachcomber]

Here's picture of B4 taken in the summer 1944 notice the sparse grass looks quite similar to me:

http://www.forgottenairfields.com/fr...b-4-s1097.html

[bazv]

Background looks South Downsey to me as well - the area around Beny - sur - merde looks much flatterrer to me on Google street view.

rgds baz

[Nachtjagd]

Pretty sure that's Lavant Down in the background, so the photo must have been taken in the NW corner of Westhampnett / Goodwood. The tree line has changed over the years but the hill hasn't (or at least it hadn't last time I walked the dog up there!)

[PeteP]

You may well be right - I'm nowhere near as familiar with the view of the Downs from Goodwood as I am from Tangmere - but they always seem closer at Goodwood than they appear to be in this photo. I'll stick with Tangmere for the moment but - with apologies to the OP for the slight thread drift - I'm keen to hear any evidence to the contrary as I regularly use this photo in talks and would hate to think I was giving out incorrect info about it.

P.

[arejay]

on Saturday I took a couple of images of the downs from what would have been the south west end of tangmere airfield, the first is facing towards the control tower and onto the duncton area of the downs and the second is facing the trundle/lavant down

[PeteP]

Thanks arejay. Funnily enough I was going to do the same thing on Thursday but you've saved me a job.
P.