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WWII Flights To Lisbon

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    #21
    That would be the Zilvermeeuw, not Zilvermeister. (meeuw being seagull, all aircraft were named after birds)

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      #22
      And to post 19: yes KLM did so to avoid rulemaking by the Dutch government. The Dutch government suggested to the other neutral governments to have their airlines do the same.

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        #23
        A bit more regarding the Danish use of the neutrality paint schemes:

        DDL did not immediately adopt the orange ‘neutrality’ paint scheme. Instead, they slightly widened and lengthened their red flash along the fuselage, painted “DANMARK” in large black print along both sides of the fuselage above the red flash and added a large Danish flag (red with a white cross) on either side of the tailplane and above and below the outer reaches of both wings. It is believed that the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor OY-DAM, having stood unused at Kastrup since 29 August 1939, first flew in this scheme on 12 November 1939. The scheme lasted less than a few months because it was overhauled from 3 January 1940 to 7 February 1940.

        OY-DAM is thought to have reappeared in the orange paint scheme after the overhaul. It is reported to have been at Schiphol wearing the orange ‘neutrality’ scheme in February 1940 (maybe when the well-known photograph of it, shown BELOW, was taken).

        On 8 April 1940, OY-DAM left Kastrup for the regular service to Schiphol and the onward flight to Shoreham Airport in southern England. As usual, it stayed at Shoreham overnight but, as German forces had invaded Denmark on 9 April 1940, it was refused permission to leave for what then had become enemy-occupied territory. Captain Hansen was required to hand over the keys and aircraft papers and a military guard was placed on the aircraft. The Secretary of State for Air impounded the aircraft and arranged for BOAC to take charge of it. Its fuel was drained and replaced by a lower grade fuel to discourage any attempt to fly it away. Two days later, the Air Ministry in Britain impressed it. The next day, camouflage was hastily applied by hand to make it less visible from the air.

        Its sister ship, OY-DEM, continued to fly in ‘neutrality’ colours from early 1940 until the summer of 1945.
        Attached Files

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          #24
           photo EI-ACA800a_zpsae45nkvp.jpg

           photo EI-ACA800b_zpsz2htrnci.jpg

          Sorry my error, the camouflaged DC-3 (post#5) is Zilverreiger (also a bird I think)......
          One less well known orange DC-3 was the Irish Aer Lingus Teoranta (ALT) EI-ACA which was delivered through Shoreham in 1940...might have been the last one via the Fokker agency, quite soon painted camouflage on top , but still orange underneath.EDIT The ALT DC-3 was only used for flights to England in WWII .Irish nationals could travel to neutral Lisbon on the BOAC flying-boats from Foynes (Shannon)
          https://youtu.be/SxK22YAqw1c Orange Irish DC-3 in use 1940
          https://www.google.com/culturalinsti...OQGfQF5rj83DCA

          http://www.belgian-wings.be/Webpages...%20OO-AGZ.html (cropped version of the 3-airline shot)
          Last edited by longshot; 6th May 2017, 10:37.

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            #25
            Re post #13.... did the orange painted DC-3s actually fly from the route Amsterdam to Naples?*In Ivan Smirnoff's biography he talks about having to take the train from Naples to Amsterdam across Germany (obviously before Holland was invaded)...France did not permit KLM overflying to Lisbon, Italy got increasingly difficult with Imperial/BOAC and I wonder if KLM would fly over Germany in late1939/early 1940

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              #26
              Originally posted by longshot View Post
              Sorry my error, the camouflaged DC-3 is Zilverreiger (also a bird I think).....
              My apologies, it is zilverreiger not zilvermeeuw. Shouldn't post late in the evening... All KLM aircraft were named after a bird, the name starting with the last letter of the the registration.

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                #27
                Originally posted by longshot View Post
                Re post #13.... did the orange painted DC-3s actually fly from the route Amsterdam to Naples?*In Ivan Smirnoff's biography he talks about having to take the train from Naples to Amsterdam across Germany (obviously before Holland was invaded)...France did not permit KLM overflying to Lisbon, Italy got increasingly difficult with Imperial/BOAC and I wonder if KLM would fly over Germany in late1939/early 1940
                I'll look that up.

                Smirnoff was just one of many KLM crew and pax who took the train in early 1940. Train Amsterdam to Naples and vv. This was to because Naples becane the end of the line to and from the Dutch East Indies instead of Schiphol.

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                  #28
                  Re post #23....where did OY-DEM continue to fly to 1940 -1945 and where was it based? I see that it (surprisingly?) went back into service with DDL post-war until damaged at Northolt September 1946. Brilliant photo of the DDL/SABENA/KLM orange group!

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                    #29
                    I don't know all the services that OY-DEM flew and it would take too much time and space to got through all the chopping and changing of its work. Here are a few jottings.

                    It was based for quite a while at Munich for flights to Berlin, linking with a DDL service from Malmo and Copenhagen. Later, it operated a Copenhagen-Berlin-Munich-Berlin-Copenhagen service - seven hours flying a day, six days a week - difficult with one aircraft. Later, DDL was told by the German authorities that it could not operate the domestic Munich/Berlin/Munich sectors but was offered the Berlin-Vienna service instead. This started on 1 December 1941 (depart Berlin at 0900 and depart Vienna at 14.00), roughly two hours each way, six days a week. Two weeks later, it made a wheels-up landing at Vienna. And that takes us to the end of 1941!

                    The following war years saw repairs, maintenance and overhauls, technical problems, fuel shortages, service cancellations because of war activities and so on. Mainly, it operated the Vienna service, at times only from Berlin and at other times from Copenhagen through Berlin. DDL's Ju-52 OY-DAL had, in general, provided the Malmo-Copenhagen link, some periods the Copenhagen-Berlin leg, too) but it crashed in December 1941, leaving DDL with only one aircraft - OY-DEM, which was in for overhaul at the time. DDL soldiered on with OY-DEM, mainly on the Copenhagen-Berlin-Vienna but adding the Malmo leg at times. That's the short version anyway.

                    You mention OY-DEM's post-war crash at Northolt. Ironically, it not only happened in England, geographically quite close to OY-DAM/G-AGAY's crash at White Waltham but also in a similar way. Both crashes involved landing in the rain on surfaces sufficiently wet that the brakes wouldn't stop either in time - at least that's the way it all reads to me.

                    That photograph is terrific but quite common, in fact. I took it from a book on DDL's Condors (from which I've quoted extensively here) but the photo is also on that Schiphol photo website cited in an earlier post. I think it was also in an Air-Britain publication many years back but my mind might be playing tricks.

                    Incidentally, there is apparently colour film footage of OY-DAM in its orange 'neutrality' scheme but I've never seen the film. Here's a still as published in the aforementioned book
                    Attached Files

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                      #30
                      Originally posted by longshot View Post
                      Re post #13.... did the orange painted DC-3s actually fly from the route Amsterdam to Naples?*In Ivan Smirnoff's biography he talks about having to take the train from Naples to Amsterdam across Germany (obviously before Holland was invaded)...France did not permit KLM overflying to Lisbon, Italy got increasingly difficult with Imperial/BOAC and I wonder if KLM would fly over Germany in late1939/early 1940
                      As far as I can see in my references the Naples based KLM DC-3s were all silver with black Holland titles. Only used on the East Indies line which had cone to a halt on Sept 8 1939 and been restarted on the 16th with Naples as a terminus. Germany was not allowed to be overflown, and special permission spught to ferry a further three DC3s to Naples over Germany in September to add to the fleet there. Crews and pax were ferried by train to and from Naples. Orange schemes appear only to have been used on the remaining European routes to Norway, Denmark and the UK eg. A further service to Lisbon was opened in April.

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                        #31
                        Not about the Lisbon route but a follow-on to the discussion, above, about DDL's Fw-200 Condor OY-DAM. The image below should show the 'neutrality' colour scheme before the later adoption of the all-over orange paint scheme.

                        From at least one report, the British authorities thought that the white crosses on the Danish flags might be mistaken for German crosses and insisted on the overall orange finish for DDL's flights to Shoreham, the designated airport for the London service in the late-1939/early-1940 period.
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by ianwoodward9; 6th May 2017, 14:54.

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                          #32
                          BOAC's Curtiss CW-20 G-AGDI St Louis made it's first trips outside the UK in early 1942 to Lisbon en-route to Bathurst Gambia but no photos exist of it at Lisbon....this is probably at Whitchurch...St Louis also flew the more dangerous routes to Malta and Stockholm in 1942 (pic from the SDASM/flickr collection )

                           photo I-G-AGDI-CW-20x800_zpsykcgvnuj.jpg
                          Last edited by longshot; 6th May 2017, 23:16.

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                            #33
                            According to Nils Mathisrud's new book on THE STOCKHOLM RUN, the Curtiss Wright CW-20 G-AGDI made five trips there in 1942. The first arrived at Bromma Airport on 5 April 1942 and last departed Bromma on 11 December 1942.

                            A J Jackson says it had been "Ferried to Prestwick by A.C.P. Johnstone on12.11.41 in 9 hours 40 minutes. Used on long haul routes and Gibraltar-Malta run in 1942". He also says that BOAC converted it to a 24-seater but I'm pretty sure I read that it was used to haul freight on the Stockholm run but I'd have to check that.

                            I think this photo is better known and wondered where it was taken but I've just found a note that the location is Gibraltar.
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by ianwoodward9; 7th May 2017, 10:49.

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                              #34
                              I just found a note in my PC files (a note I had forgotten) and these are the two relevant parts:


                              It made five return flights between Leuchars and Stockholm, at irregular intervals in 1942. According to one source, the aircraft was used on the UK-Gibraltar-Malta service between May and September that year. Another simply says it did the Gibraltar-Malta run in 1942.

                              Referring to a flying boat service that started in March 1942 and flew Poole-Gibraltar-Malta-Gibraltar-Malta-Gibraltar-Poole, the Air Ministry account says that this plane was “helped during May, when the blitz was at its strongest, by the C.W.20 land-plane Saint Louis”. It referred to “occasional flights between Gibraltar and Malta, using the airfield at Luqa”. Luqa was a principal target of the bombing raids and St. Louis “had to be unloaded, refuelled and reloaded in a single night … operations that were always carried out during air raids” when “the only illumination was the reflection of the probing searchlights .. augmented by the glare from a burning building or the flashes of bomb explosions. The usual rule was to continue work until the searchlight cones started to move directly over the airfield, then to jump for cover as the bombs came down”.

                              With the expiry of its Certificate of Airworthiness on 21 February 1943, St. Louis flew to Whitchurch, Bristol for disposal. On 24 October 1943, it went from there, to Filton, Bristol, Taken off the aircraft register on 29 October 1943, it was then dismantled/broken up at Filton.


                              I probably drew on Peter Moss's account and the HMSO Merchant Airmen booklet.


                              Nils Mathisrud says G-AGDI was "scrapped in November 1943".
                              Last edited by ianwoodward9; 7th May 2017, 14:19.

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                                #35
                                Curtiss CW-20 G-AGDI St Louis, with BOAC including it's demise
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                                  #36
                                  That was terrific - so much detail regarding G-AGDI, longshot. Thank you. Can you please tell me the source?

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                                    #37
                                    Since this thread started with KLM DC-3s, I thought this photograph of three of them at Schiphol in the late 1930s might be of interest:
                                    Attached Files

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                                      #38
                                      This is another photograph of Schiphol in the 1930s, this time an aerial view. The middle aircraft appears to be DDL's Ju-52 OY-DAL, mentioned in post # 29 above. The one on the right is presumably a DC-2 of KLM - am I correct?
                                      Attached Files

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                                        #39
                                        Ian....
                                        Post#35...CW-20 sources, books like 'Blockade Runners', BA Museum, internet, Air-Britain abix forum for the CW-20's last days....
                                        Post#37 ...nearest is a DC-3, then 2 DC-2s
                                        Post #38...yes DC-2 on right
                                        Last edited by longshot; 8th May 2017, 00:40.

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                                          #40
                                          #37: nearest is a KLM DC-3. Then KLM DC-2 PH-ALD "Djalak" (lost Schiphol May1940), then a CSK DC-2.

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