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Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

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  • Jagan
    bharatiyayuddhapakshulu
    • Jan 2000
    • 610

    Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

    Sorry to put this "Non-Warbird Question"

    Can you identify this aircraft?

    http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/History/1940s/Images/Jumbo-Majumdar01.jpg

    Wanted a confirmation that the cockpit is a Mustang fighter. (I know its not a spit , the rear view mirror is missing and the windshield is different). The pic is of Wg Cdr K K Majumdar from India during his tenure with an RAF squadron during D-Day time.

    on another note, the unit he was supposedly attached with was No.263 Squadron. Were they flying Mustangs or Spits during the Ardennes offensive?

    Jagan
    ---------------------------------
    Co-Webmaster
    http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF
    http://www.warbirdsofindia.com
    ---------------------------------
    My Books: The Westland Wapiti in the Indian Air Force (1933-1943) | Eagles over Bangladesh | The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965
  • coanda
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2000
    • 2306

    #2
    RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

    pic hasnt opened jagan!!

    coanda

    Comment

    • lauriebe
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2000
      • 573

      #3
      RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

      263 Sqn operated Hawker Typhoons. In July 1944, they were part of No. 10 Group stationed at RAF Bolt Head, Devon. Presumably, they moved to the continent some time after D-Day. In July 1945, they were based at Hildesheim as part of No. 84 Group, still operating Typhoons.

      As your picture seems not to have uploaded, it isn't possible to identify. However, the Typhoon cockpit is quite similar to the later style Mustang.

      Try sending the pic again.
      pb::

      Comment

      • Jagan
        bharatiyayuddhapakshulu
        • Jan 2000
        • 610

        #4
        RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

        http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Images/Jumbo-Majumdar01.jpg

        My apologies again, now posted the correct link. The question as i said, which aircraft is this?

        Majumdar recieved the Bar to his DFC for flying PR missions during the Faliase Gap battle . The only bar 2 DFC awarded to an indian .

        -Jagan
        My Books: The Westland Wapiti in the Indian Air Force (1933-1943) | Eagles over Bangladesh | The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965

        Comment

        • neilly
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2000
          • 800

          #5
          RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

          [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 25-10-01 AT 08:50 AM (GMT)[/font][p]Hi All,
          263 Sqd. moved around quite abit. Here we go-
          Bolt Head 19/06/44
          Hurn 10/07/44
          Eastchurch 23/07/44
          B.3. St.Croix 06/08/44
          Manston 06/09/44
          B.51. Lille/Vendeville 11/09/44
          B.70. Dearne 02/10/44
          Fairwood Common 13/01/45
          B.89. Mill 10/02/45
          B.105. Drope 16/04/45
          B.111. Abihorn30/04/45
          R.16. Hildenhiem June 1945
          Like I said they were well travelled!!!
          There are no Mustangs listed on Sqd charge. Gladiators, Hurricane 1's, Whirlwind 1's & Typhoon 1b's are the only types flown from October 1939 to August 1945.
          Neilly

          Comment

          • philo
            Antagonistic purist
            • Jan 2000
            • 967

            #6
            RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

            Not Mustang or Typhoon, definitely not Gladiator, wrong for Hurri, not that familiar with Wirlwind.
            Looks a bit like a P63 ???
            Country::UK

            Comment

            • lauriebe
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2000
              • 573

              #7
              RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

              Having now seen the photo, I'm 99.9% sure that it is a Typhoon. The shape of the canopy frame and the armour plate behind the pilot's head are all right for this type of aeroplane.

              The unit and the time are also right.

              Laurie.
              pb::

              Comment

              • philo
                Antagonistic purist
                • Jan 2000
                • 967

                #8
                RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

                Not convinvced that it is typhoon,must have a look at some piccies tonight.
                Country::UK

                Comment

                • tonydyer
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 216

                  #9
                  RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

                  Sorry Philo, its a Typhoon!! Tear drop canopy version....things to note are rear armour plate, the Reflector gunsight and mounting method! At a push it could be Tempest V but my money is definitely Typhoon!

                  Comment

                  • neilly
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 800

                    #10
                    RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

                    [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 25-10-01 AT 08:54 PM (GMT)[/font][p]Hi All,
                    It most certainly a Typhoon canopy. I've just been looking at one of my books, The Typhoon & Tempest Story. There's a picture of a Typhoon canopy, from a similar angle, the shape of the frame is identical in both pictures.
                    Neilly

                    Comment

                    • philo
                      Antagonistic purist
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 967

                      #11
                      RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

                      Interesting, good job i didn't stake any money on it.
                      Phil.
                      Country::UK

                      Comment

                      • Jagan
                        bharatiyayuddhapakshulu
                        • Jan 2000
                        • 610

                        #12
                        RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

                        Thanks everyone, a Typhoon it is, after the intial guesses here, checked out the Typhoon pics, and the shape of the Canopy does match. Interesting, never thought Indian Pilots flew Typhoons at all.. I will update my WW2 pages accordingly.

                        Regards

                        Jagan
                        My Books: The Westland Wapiti in the Indian Air Force (1933-1943) | Eagles over Bangladesh | The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965

                        Comment

                        • P9306
                          Member
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 77

                          #13
                          RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

                          Hi Jagan.

                          Sadly ,the history of Indian and other non-white aircrew is not terribly well known over here in GB.

                          I think we all know the "reason" behind it as well.

                          Any info on Asian or Black crew in the RAF is always interesting to hear.

                          I did recently read a small story on a website of an Indian pilot who crashed his Hurricane into a hill in GB.
                          I shall have to try and find the story again.

                          Apart from the Sikh who flew the Mosquito in "633 Squadron", very little is ever shown in books or mags etc, on the huge contributions made by our Asian and Black friends in the Commonwealth.

                          Regards
                          Mick

                          Comment

                          • ColFord
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2000
                            • 55

                            #14
                            RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

                            I will add my comments to this, starting with the fact that the RAF and IAF records show that the Squadron in question that Majumdar served with was No 268 Squadron RAF, not No.263. No.268 was a tactical reconnaissance squadron operating within 2nd TAF for the invasion of Europe, and at the time Majumdar served with them the Squaron was operating a mixed complement of North American Mustang Mk IA, and Hawker Typhoon FR.1B aircraft (two flights of Mustangs and one of Typhoons brought about by the shortage of Allison engined Mustangs by that time). The Typhoons only remained with the Squadron from July to November 1944, when they were phased out as No2 Sqn passed its NAA Mustang MkII aircraft onto No.268. The Typhoon didn't prove as popular with the pilots for low level tac-recce work as the Allison engined Mustangs. The Squadron eventually handed in the last of its Mustangs in mid-1945, by which time it was changing over to Spitfire FR-XIVEs. By that stage Majumdar had left the Squadron and returned to India.

                            The aircraft pictured is therefore one of the Squadron's Hawker Typhoon FR.1Bs, the Mustangs had a different style canopy - I have compared with photos I have of some of the Squadron's other pilots taken in Mustangs around the same timeframe as the photo shown, and other photos of pilots in Typhoons. Typhoon it is!!
                            Colin Ford
                            Canberra
                            Australia

                            No.268 Squadron RAF Historian

                            Comment

                            • Jagan
                              bharatiyayuddhapakshulu
                              • Jan 2000
                              • 610

                              #15
                              RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

                              Colin,

                              Thanks for the information. That confirms that Majumdar would have flown Mustangs, and the Indian Air Force is not wrong when they said he was with a Mustang Squadron. My apologies for confusing 268 with 263 (and leading everyone offtrack! )

                              Thanks.

                              Jagan
                              My Books: The Westland Wapiti in the Indian Air Force (1933-1943) | Eagles over Bangladesh | The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965

                              Comment

                              • tonydyer
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2000
                                • 216

                                #16
                                RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

                                Jagan

                                did you see my posting under 'New'Hurricane that shows where the identity is marked on a Hurricane as it may help you

                                regards

                                Tony

                                Comment

                                • Guest's Avatar
                                  Tempest

                                  #17
                                  RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

                                  THE WINDSHIELD, GUN SIGHT AND MOUNTING SHOWS CLEARLY IT'S A TYPHOON.

                                  HAPPY LANDINGS

                                  TEMPEST

                                  Comment

                                  • Jagan
                                    bharatiyayuddhapakshulu
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 610

                                    #18
                                    RE: Is this cockpit a Mustang Cockpit ?

                                    tony,

                                    yes, i have taken a print and kept it for my to-do list

                                    thanks

                                    Jagan

                                    ---------------------------------
                                    Co-Webmaster
                                    http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF
                                    http://www.warbirdsofindia.com
                                    ---------------------------------
                                    My Books: The Westland Wapiti in the Indian Air Force (1933-1943) | Eagles over Bangladesh | The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965

                                    Comment

                                    • Snoopy
                                      Aviation Bookworm
                                      • Jan 2000
                                      • 146

                                      #19
                                      Non-European aircrew in European theatre during WW2

                                      >
                                      >Sadly ,the history of Indian and other non-white aircrew is not
                                      >terribly well known over here in GB.
                                      >
                                      > ...
                                      >
                                      >Any info on Asian or Black crew in the RAF is always
                                      >interesting to hear.
                                      >
                                      >I did recently read a small story on a website of an Indian
                                      >pilot who crashed his Hurricane into a hill in GB. I shall
                                      >have to try and find the story again.
                                      >
                                      >Apart from the Sikh who flew the Mosquito in "633 Squadron",
                                      >very little is ever shown in books or mags etc, on the huge
                                      >contributions made by our Asian and Black friends in the
                                      >Commonwealth.
                                      >
                                      >Regards
                                      >Mick


                                      Mick:

                                      Nice to read your sentiments. I'd be *most* interested in the story of the Indian Hurricane pilot you mention, if you manage to dig it out.

                                      People like Jagan (and Pushpindar Singh, the doyen of Indian aviation historians) will have far more; but in response to your comment that info on Asian and Black aircrew in the RAF is always interesting to hear, here are a few rambling snippets(from an enthusiast, not an expert!):

                                      As you probably know, there were ten RIAF squadrons in the Burma-India theatre which were crewed entirely by Indians, and earned over 25 DFCs between them. But being part of the forgotten theatre, they are often overlooked in European and American histories. More visibly in the UK, there were some Indians (not sure of numbers; but perhaps in the region of 50 to 100?) who volunteered for service as aircrew with the RAFVR after WW2 broke out. By the time they had been shipped to the UK for training the BoB was over, so AFAIK none of them flew in the BoB. However, most went on to serve in other campaigns, and some did fly in the European theatre. Among them, and far from exhaustively:

                                      Shivdev Singh (later Air Marshal and Vice Chief of the Indian Air Force) flew Stirlings with RAF Bomber Command over Germany;

                                      Manmohan Singh (killed in action helping to evacuate Dutch civilians from advancing Japanese in SE Asia) flew Sunderlands, I think with RAF Coastal Command;

                                      Ranjan Dutt (later Air Vice-Marshal, and boss of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd) flew fighters in the European and in the Burma-India theatres (pretty much unrelated, but perhaps of passing interest, his daughter Ayesha Dutt became a film actress!); and

                                      Mahender Singh Pujji (still living in the UK, I think) flew Spitfires in the UK, P-40s in North Africa and later served in the Burma-India theatre, was awarded a DFC, and features in both Chris Somerville's book "Our War", as well as in a MoD insert in the education resource pack "Together" on the contribution of non-whites to the war effort. (I found a copy of this pack at the Imperial War Museum shop.)

                                      K K Majumdar, the picture of whom started this thread, was different from all these, in that he was a regular RIAF officer rather than RAFVR; and only came to the European theatre after a distinguished tour in the Burma-India theatre (where he received his first DFC).

                                      There were also a number of black aircrew from the Caribbean who flew Spitfires and Hurricanes, or served as bomber crews, in Europe -- some of them are also featured in Chris Somerville's "Our War" and the "Together" pack. There was an interesting picture on the UK MoD website some months ago, of a black sergeant-pilot together with the great "Sailor" Malan, at Biggin Hill. Given Sailor Malan's nationality, I sometimes wonder what some of his pre-Mandela countrymen would have made of this picture! Incidentally, the black sergeant-pilot's name is given as Bunting -- any relation of the Bunting who founded the Jamaican merchant bank of that name, I wonder?

                                      Hope this is of interest to you (and perhaps to some of your compatriots). Regards,

                                      Snoopy

                                      Comment

                                      • Jagan
                                        bharatiyayuddhapakshulu
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 610

                                        #20
                                        RE: Non-European aircrew in European theatre during WW2

                                        I think Mick must be refering to this page

                                        http://www.neeacr.fsnet.co.uk/HurricaneZ3150.htm

                                        about Pt Off H C Mehta who died in a training accident flying a Hurricane.


                                        Very interesting post Snoopy. I would say that most of the pilots who flew in britain and in the RAFVR under different commands finally came back to be a part of the IAF/RIAF by the end of the WW2.

                                        Now the question comes, were there aircrew who were in the RAF of Indian/Subcontinental origin and did not join the IAF by the war's end? i.e. crew who started thier career in the RAF and served only with the RAF?


                                        My Books: The Westland Wapiti in the Indian Air Force (1933-1943) | Eagles over Bangladesh | The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965

                                        Comment

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