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RAF Museum Hendon - Closure / Dispersion of Battle of Britain Hall

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  • SADSACK
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2000
    • 3482

    It was probably a PR XI that photographed the Dams after 617s trip... so a PR Spitfire would be at home in the Bomber hall. The KI100 would be logical to go to a new home, after all at least 2 ME163s have been got rid of.
    pb::

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    • Creaking Door
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Sep 2006
      • 9863

      ...leaving, what, only three Me163 in the country?

      The Ki-100 is unique, irreplaceable.....and you would swap it for another bloody Spitfire?

      I would have thought that the RAF operating two Spitfire PRXIX (PM631 & PS915) in flying condition and displaying them all over the country would have been enough to satisfy the 'underrepresented' art of photo-reconnaissance...

      ...but apparently you think not, you need to have another Spitfire PR variant in Hendon?
      Last edited by Creaking Door; 9th September 2017, 12:55.
      WA$.

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      • Creaking Door
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Sep 2006
        • 9863

        Still this RAFM web page is disingenuous with the truth. I make no apologies for going on about this.

        https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/...tain-hall.aspx
        I think it is worth quoting what the RAF Museum has to say about the re-display of the Battle-of-Britain aircraft:

        Redisplay plans will see five aircraft moving to new locations on our Cosford site (the Messerschmitt Bf 109G-2, Junkers Ju 88 R-1, Boulton Paul Defiant I, De Havilland Tiger Moth II and Gloster Gladiator I). The display of the Boulton Paul Defiant I in a West Midlands venue is particularly relevant given the company’s local history.

        In London, four aircraft will move into our main gallery (the Supermarine Spitfire I, Hawker Hurricane I, Fiat CR.42 and Messerschmitt Bf 109E).

        Four will be redisplayed in Bomber Hall with the Messerschmitt Bf 110G-4 displayed in pursuit of the Lancaster, clearly demonstrating the challenges of night bombing. The Heinkel He 111 H-20, Junkers Ju 87G-2 Stuka and Bristol Blenheim IV will complete the story.
        To me, while the loss of a 'dedicated' Battle-of-Britain hall is regrettable, I've been one of the fiercest critics of it in recent years; I don't think there are many who would disagree that it was desperately in need of updating!

        The access to the aircraft was ****-poor (until this year I'd never seen a Bf-110 from the rear or the far side of a Ju-88 or He-111), the lighting had drawn a lot of criticism, space was wasted on a lot of moth-eaten mannequins and many other exhibits were often out-of-order or closed.

        On the plus-side the Sunderland was a stunning walk-through exhibit (when it was open), the lighting was excellent in that half (thanks to these new-fangled, low-energy, things called 'w-i-n-d-o-w-s'!) and you could even get a good look at a V2 (which the RAF Museum seem to have forgotten about)!

        The 'crashed' Hurricane from the Battle-of-Britain hall, perhaps the most evocative exhibit in there, is not mentioned; presumably it isn't destined for a skip out the back!

        Frankly, I can see the logic of putting the Bf-110 (night-fighter!) in with the Lancaster; perhaps a regular 'rotation' of this and the Ju-88 night-fighter through the Bomber hall and a (future?) Battle-of-Britain hall wouldn't be such a bad thing?

        Is the Blenheim a fighter variant? Could it be converted to a night-fighter variant? Having this displayed with the He-111 would highlight the pioneering, and successful, role the RAF played in developing airborne radar?
        Last edited by Creaking Door; 9th September 2017, 19:35.
        WA$.

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        • David Burke
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2000
          • 10028

          Your points dont really gell. Its the RAF museum.Therefore to tell the tale of the RAF the fact that the BBMF operate PRXIX doesnt really have any relevance to going to Hendon.

          As to the Ki100 - you perfectly illustrated the point. Its unique and irreplaceable.
          However that doesnt mean it has a great relevance to the RAF .Its far more interesting sat in a museum in Japan.

          Comment

          • SADSACK
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2000
            • 3482

            PR XI's operated from Hendon...

            The Blenheim next to the Battle is common sense. Early Bomber command a/c will finally be represented. I never saw any logic in the Tiger Moth being in the BoB collection, makes sense if it goes with other training a/c. Shame the Gladiator and Bulldog wont be together.
            pb::

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            • Creaking Door
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Sep 2006
              • 9863

              Are there any Spitfire PRXI in the country, or available, anywhere?
              WA$.

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              • Creaking Door
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Sep 2006
                • 9863

                Your points dont really gell. Its the RAF museum. Therefore to tell the tale of the RAF the fact that the BBMF operate PRXIX doesnt really have any relevance to going to Hendon.
                Seriously?

                Surely, the 'RAF Museum' is Hendon, Cosford and all the other airframes on loan to other museums? Plus, in addition to that, the RAF operate the aircraft of the BBMF...

                ...are you really saying that isn't enough for you to 'tell the tale of the RAF'?

                Do you live in Hendon or.....are you somehow prevented from visiting anywhere else?
                WA$.

                Comment

                • Creaking Door
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 9863

                  As to the Ki100 - you perfectly illustrated the point. Its unique and irreplaceable. However that doesnt mean it has a great relevance to the RAF.

                  It's far more interesting sat in a museum in Japan.
                  Only if you live in Japan is it 'far more interesting'...

                  ...it would be far less interesting to myself and 99.999% of the British population because we'd never ever have the chance to see it, and even if we did it would be extremely briefly and at prohibitive expense!

                  There is also this thing called tourism, Britain's third biggest industry; if it doesn't fit the remit of the RAF Museum then let us move it to the IWM and create a world-class enclave of Japanese aircraft?
                  WA$.

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                  • SADSACK
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 3482

                    The KI100 needs to be in a museum or collection, and if it was part of a deal that saw a rare aircraft relevant to the RAF go on show, all the better.
                    pb::

                    Comment

                    • Pen Pusher
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 2657

                      Had a visit to Hendon today. Maybe the Beacon isn't dead after all.



                      Brian
                      The Future Of Photography Is Mirrorless

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                      • David Burke
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jan 2000
                        • 10028

                        The majority of visitors to the RAF museums at Cosford and Hendon are not aircraft enthusiasts. Therefore if they don't get the story told well at either site they are not going to spend more money to drive round the country looking for the aircraft they didn't see ! As for Spitfire PRXI - three have been available at various times in the last forty years . It's not mission impossible to get one.

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                        • David Burke
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 10028

                          As for the Ki100 - it would be far more relevant in Japan or for that matter in the USA next to a B-29.
                          We don't need to display unique example of Japanese technology - a well restored Zero or Val would be of greater interest and more incontext.

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                          • SADSACK
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2000
                            • 3482

                            Looks like the P51 is moving at last - but where?
                            pb::

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                            • Creaking Door
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Sep 2006
                              • 9863

                              As for the Ki100 - it would be far more relevant in Japan or for that matter in the USA next to a B-29.
                              Or in fact anywhere but in the United Kingdom it seems.....what about next to the B-29 at Duxford?

                              The majority of visitors to the RAF museums at Cosford and Hendon are not aircraft enthusiasts...
                              All the more reason to have as much variety at the RAF Museum sites as possible...

                              ...they aren't going to notice, or care, that they didn't see a Spitfire PRXI (just the four other Spitfires)!

                              Let the minority of 'aircraft enthusiasts' hunt round the country to find the aircraft not at Hendon!

                              The RAF Museum at Hendon is also an important London tourist site (or should be); many of the visitors aren't British and probably come to see the unique non-RAF aircraft as much as anything else.
                              Last edited by Creaking Door; 9th September 2017, 19:24.
                              WA$.

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                              • David Burke
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2000
                                • 10028

                                Undoubtedly it would have more relevance with the B-29. I think he point that I am trying to get across is that whilst we did capture the likes of the Ki100 - the fact that they are unique examples doesn't mean they tell any more of a story than a not so rare Zero. So yes it's great that we preserved it - however it's poor that what we have to represent the Zero doesn't do the type justice

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                                • Creaking Door
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Sep 2006
                                  • 9863

                                  I agree; and when the IWM (hopefully) get round to sympathetically restoring either of their two Zero fighters we will have two Zero fighters.....and a Ki-100 in this country!

                                  And yes, we did preserve it.....unlike many of the 'war prizes' taken by other countries; what wouldn't aviation enthusiasts give now to have had some of them preserved?

                                  I'm sorry, now that we've done all the hard work, why should we just give-away all these unique assets?
                                  Last edited by Creaking Door; 9th September 2017, 19:52.
                                  WA$.

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                                  • Maple 01
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • May 2004
                                    • 449

                                    .......so because the only Zero we've got is in bits we should dispose of the Ki100 - rather than, say, recover another Zero as well?
                                    Last edited by Maple 01; 9th September 2017, 19:45.
                                    Krlewska Moc Powietrza nie jest lot cyrku.....

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                                    • Bruce
                                      Independent analyst
                                      • Jan 2000
                                      • 10224

                                      Neither IWM zero will ever be restored to accurately represent the type. One is much too far gone, and there isn't enough of the other. It does however well represent a captured Japanese aircraft, that was operated by the RAF, and in that sense rather more relevant than the Ki100.

                                      I return to my original point. Many of those aircraft would be better placed in the IWM than with the RAFM. Context is important.

                                      Comment

                                      • Creaking Door
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Sep 2006
                                        • 9863

                                        I agree, but the RAF Museum should not be allowed to offload any airframes to 'the highest bidder' or more airframes will simply disappear abroad into a shipping-container to be restored 'at some time in the future'...

                                        ...and under no circumstances should the Bf-110, Ju-87, Ju-88, He-111 or CR.42 ever leave the RAFM collection.
                                        WA$.

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                                        • Creaking Door
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Sep 2006
                                          • 9863

                                          With regard to either IWM Zero, isn't there enough Zero 'replica' building experience out there to, at least, provide new-build wings and tail for one of them?

                                          It would have to be done extremely sympathetically, destroying as little original airframe as possible (none), and not 'restoring' at all the original cockpit sections; the new-build sections wouldn't even need to be attached but could be positioned exactly to leave a 10mm gap between them and the original airframe. They could even be finished in a 'replica deteriorated' paint scheme?

                                          It wouldn't be cheap but the technology certainly exists to scan and digitise for a perfect 'fit' to the original.
                                          WA$.

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