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By: - 27th June 2015 at 23:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fantastic! What a project.
By: - 27th June 2015 at 23:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well good luck with it Alloy, I'd love to see one flying.
By: - 27th June 2015 at 23:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
An amazing project as has already been said, even if it resulted in a static example it would still be a major achievement! Wishing you the very best with the project.
With regards the engine, would it be possible to substitute a Griffon for the Sabre? The Tempest prototype and Mk.1 were intended to have the Griffon, could the Tempest installation be copied for a Typhoon? Obviously it wouldn't sound the same, but it might reduce some engine headaches? Just an armchair thought.
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By: - 28th June 2015 at 00:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wow!
This is a very exciting project.
Thank you for posting and sharing this with us.
I wish you the best of success and look forward to any further postings.
Andy Scott
By: - 28th June 2015 at 02:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thank you for the kind words all!
Everything will be built with the intent to fly the aircraft, of course the timeline is foggy without having concrete sources for the missing bits, but the end result (bare minimum) will be a Typhoon on static but ready for flight. Should everything be ready and a Sabre still not be available, a Griffon will be considered to get the Typhoon in the air due to the fact that it would require very little modification. The goal remains to have this 100% authentic upon completion, Sabre included. It is also my intent to retain all jigs and build form blocks capable of producing multiple components, not production scale, but enough for spares support or to help with other projects either static or airworthy.
More to follow as construction begins!
By: - 28th June 2015 at 08:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Ian,
It sounds a formidable project, I look forward to following it on your website.
I hope you can share a lot of photos and experiences as you progress, as it will be quite interesting.
All the best,
Greg
By: - 28th June 2015 at 09:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sounds like a great project, good luck.
By: - 28th June 2015 at 09:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Good news , what a great project , well presented and equally well received , all the best and keep us updated with plenty of pictures please .
By: - 28th June 2015 at 13:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Best of luck with this interesting project.
Looking forward to watching this progress to hopefully an airworthy conclusion
Roger
By: - 28th June 2015 at 13:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can't wait to see how this develops :)
Does this mean I'm building a new Sabre? Not at the moment but it is an option.
And I don't envy you this task. Surely new building a Sabre will be measured in $millions rather than thousands!
By: - 28th June 2015 at 14:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can't wait to see how this develops :)And I don't envy you this task. Surely new building a Sabre will be measured in $millions rather than thousands!
There is an interesting company that has demonstrated the technology that can be used to scan an original part and duplicate a rare aircraft engine. They are already in the process of making one. It will be very interesting to see this technology used for more aircraft restoration and to make rare parts more available. It certainly seems possible that this could lay the foundation for a new Sabre engine as well as new airframe components taken from digital measurements.
By: - 28th June 2015 at 14:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's a very impressive video
By: - 28th June 2015 at 17:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
DoraNineFan,
Thank you very much for sharing the video and link, I had yet to find a company that worked on projects like this start to finish. A good deal of the complexities known in the Sabre are eliminated through use of modern CNC, the tooling that Napier developed was simply amazing at the time, and would be incredibly difficult and expensive to recreate today for a short production run of engines. There is no doubt that the costs in a new build small batch of Sabres will be very steep, but through the use of 3D scanning, mould printing and machining it takes some of the sting out!
While 3D scanning can only capture accessible geometry, it can also be used in conjunction with known data to reverse engineer a good portion of the wing for the Typhoon. Through the use of remaining drawings, articles and the AP; most of the internal structures material specifications and profiles can be obtained. Using 3D scanning the external geometry can be captured complete with accurate positioning data from each component based on rivet lines, add some careful inspection through access holes to determine the location of lightening holes and small brackets, and I'm one step closer to a new wing. A slow process though, at the moment I've been passed between Hendon and Ottawa with each saying the other should be approached to grant access to MN235.
By: - 28th June 2015 at 18:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Great work Ian, good luck with Hendon and Ottawa. Perhaps an arrangement to share the scanned information with Hendon could sweeten the pot and smooth the way?
By: - 28th June 2015 at 19:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
TriangleP,
Great idea! It's often difficult to let information flow freely when it has come at great expense, but the likelihood of a project such as this (and others) succeeding without shared data is minimal, after all; the goal is to have a Typhoon in the air!
By: - 28th June 2015 at 20:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Good luck Ian what an incredible project! I seem to remember reading (on here!) that some of the parts of MN235 were missing and replacements were made that weren't quite the right shapes (the spinner being one) but I'm sure u know about this-thought I'd better mention it just in case!
What i really want to ask is this: do u foresee any certification issues with this new type of production for your Sabre?
Thanks in anticipation.
By: - 28th June 2015 at 21:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Good luck with your project Ian, sounds fantastic. If you have a complete Sabre then it will be no problem manufacturing new components. Modern machine tools are amazing, and as well as taking the sting out of reverse engineering, you can often produce a better product today. Its just a matter of being able to demonstrate to Aviation regulators that the project will be safe. A sadly departed family friend did some 60 ops in his Typhoon from the dust bowl of Normandy without an abort. Set your Sabre up correctly and it will reward you with bags of power and reliability.
By: - 29th June 2015 at 00:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oxcart,
MN235 has a Hastings spinner from my understanding, I have the same here. Although the diameter is right, they appear to be longer than what the Typhoon flew with. I've got the drawings for the correct spinner profile so will be ensuring that it is correct when all is complete. MN235 was also missing some cowling and the radiator, while the cowling isn't a problem, the radiator may be.
TempestNut,
If the new manufacturer route is required (still hoping to stumble across a few Sabres in crates) it will be complicated. Certification is possible of an entirely new built engine, but not a fast process. It will be required to run a specified number of hours, and be subject to complete tear-down and inspection. I've looked at this in the worst case possible, but it may still be possible to rebuild the engine in the same manner as the airframe under the Limited category - piece by piece. The aircraft could still fly under Griffon power until a Sabre built through this route becomes available.
I think one of the big hesitations in a Typhoon restoration has, and always will be the Sabre, but it's important that it doesn't stop progress with the intent to fly. The goal is a Sabre, and it is possible, but will anyone complain if (while a Sabre is being built or restored) there is a Typhoon in the air under the power of a Griffon? I think most would just be happy to see a second Typhoon in a museum on static, it all helps tell the story.
Step 1: certified airframe
Step 2: certified engine, prop and systems
It sure sounds simple!
Another thing to consider is the version and mod status of the engine I'm working with, I am still working on identifying it, but I do know it is fitted with the early engine mounts. There were so many advances with the Sabre that lead to it being reliable in the last year of the war, that it is important not to recreate an engine with cooling problems etc.
By: - 29th June 2015 at 02:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ian, you have a PM
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By: - 29th June 2015 at 04:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Brilliant. I don't envy your journey ahead, Ian, but regardless of outcome this will be a significant, fascinating and ultimately spectacular project. Bravo, best wishes and good luck! I hope to see more updates as and when :-)
Posts: 206
By: Alloy - 27th June 2015 at 22:39
Hello All,
As promised, I would like to update everyone on the mystical Canadian Typhoon project.
The idea for a Typhoon restoration has been alive with me since the early 1990's and came one step closer with the acquisition of a good deal of factory drawing in 2009. With the recent purchase of Roger Marley's collection I now have enough original Typhoon parts and data to justify the commencement of construction to an airworthy standard. Unfortunately, given the nature of the beast, very little of the completed project will be original structure and it is fully expected to span decades to see through. Due mostly to Rogers commitment to finding as many original parts possible, some significant gaps have been filled in available data, and key structural components can now be built new. Discussions with Transport are ongoing, but due to the large volume of original components and the identifiable component of JP843, it is very likely that this aircraft will be registered under this serial number, as such it will be constructed in memory of Peter Price, 609 Sqn.
I am currently organising and cataloguing the components acquired from Roger before construction begins, but materials are already arriving to begin work on the forward monocoque section. The project will begin with this section, while remaining components and materials are brought in to begin construction of new forward structure.
Wings, and Sabre? Let's just take this one step at a time! It's all possible, and all being worked on in the background. The Sabre currently on hand will never fly, but is extremely valuable for patter purposes. Does this mean I'm building a new Sabre? Not at the moment but it is an option.
Project construction is being carried out in a purpose built shop in British Columbia thanks to the generous support of VM Aerospace Ltd.
I will provide updates as we move forward, any information that could be provided on remaining Typhoon parts, drawings or rumours are greatly appreciated, in most cases existing parts will only be required for pattern purposes and will be returned to their owners once they have been reverse engineered. As work moves forward, help from like minded groups, individuals and projects would be warmly received and reciprocated.
A website will be developed in the coming months where progress can be tracked. Please feel free to contact me if you've got any questions, input or stories.