Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What if Germany continued the blitz?

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Moggy C
    Moderator
    • Jan 2000
    • 20534

    Indeed it was the lack of centimetric radar that hampered the nightfighter Beaus rather than performance. The Mosquito had several advantages though as it was later and had the better AI, it had no need for the crewman to change cannon-drums, it was faster, and the crew seating, side-by-side was much superior for CRM. (As an aside I am not sure why you added quotes around heavily-armed John. Aren't four x 20mm and six x 303 enough for you?)

    My suggestion was indeed for the twins to operate in the bulk of the UK beyond the range of the 109. Mixing it with single-seaters wouldn't have been a great tactic, given an alternative.

    Moggy
    Last edited by Moggy C; 13th February 2015, 15:54.
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

    Comment

    • John Green
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Mar 2011
      • 6643

      I didn't know that they were THAT well armed !!

      Comment

      • Creaking Door
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Sep 2006
        • 9863

        Originally posted by John Green View Post
        The lack of an effective British nightfighter early in the war, was a sorry omission from our armoury for which the Luftwaffe made us pay up to the point when, accurate radars were fitted to Mosquitos.
        To be fair nobody had an effective nightfighter at the start of the war and Britain certainly had some of the earliest and best radar-equipped nightfighters in 1940-1941.
        WA$.

        Comment

        • Creaking Door
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Sep 2006
          • 9863

          Originally posted by Moggy C View Post
          The Mosquito.....had no need for the crewman to change cannon-drums...
          Only the first 200 Beaufighters had drum-magazines for the cannon. Interestingly Bristol had originally wanted to fit belt-fed cannon but for some reason the Air Ministry rejected them; eventually when the drum-changing became an issue Bristol fitted the identical belt-feed they had originally suggested and it was accepted into service without any problems!

          With regard to cannon-armed twin-engined fighters hacking-down unescorted bombers, it has always been the role envisaged for them, but I cannot really think of any time during the war when it actually happened? I suppose the unwise Wellington raid against the German fleet at anchor, or Luftwaffe transports over the Mediterranean, but other than that, it doesn't seem to have happened much? I guess maybe the twin-engined fighters were too vulnerable to single-engined fighters and when the bombers couldn't be escorted they were too vulnerable to send against twin-engined fighters?
          Last edited by Creaking Door; 13th February 2015, 17:43.
          WA$.

          Comment

          • John Green
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Mar 2011
            • 6643

            CD

            When the strategic bomber offensive got under way, Me 110 nightfighters hacked down plenty of unescorted Lancasters at night.

            Comment

            • Creaking Door
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Sep 2006
              • 9863

              Well, if they were hacking-down Lancasters it wouldn't be the start of the war or even the start of the strategic bomber offensive, would it?

              As I said, at the start of the war nobody had an effective nightfighter, and certainly the Luftwaffe wasn't any better equipped than the RAF, but then they didn't think anybody would be bombing them!

              I'd be the first to admit that the Luftwaffe had a very effective nightfighter force later on but then they needed one didn't they?
              WA$.

              Comment

              • arquebus
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jun 2008
                • 277

                There was a time when the US was sending daytime raids of B-17s with no fighter escort into Germany, it was then that the Me-110 showed itself as the perfect anti-bomber fighter. Later they were able to get Mustangs with enough range to escort the bombers.

                Comment

                • John Green
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 6643

                  CD

                  Maybe we're working to different timescales and interpretations.

                  Comment

                  • tfctops
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2009
                    • 170

                    Nothing new there John

                    Comment

                    • Creaking Door
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Sep 2006
                      • 9863

                      Originally posted by John Green View Post
                      Maybe we're working to different timescales and interpretations.
                      I think the first ever successful radar-assisted nightfighter interception was on 22nd July 1940 when an RAF Blenheim shot-down a Do17; I don't think the Luftwaffe got a radar-equipped nightfighter into service until late 1941.

                      Later on the Luftwaffe nightfighter force became truly formidable and took a huge toll on Bomber Command aircraft but the nightfighters were operating in a sustained target-rich environment and the Bomber Command aircraft operated under some severe tactical disadvantages compared to Luftwaffe bombers over Britain.
                      WA$.

                      Comment

                      • otis
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 211

                        Originally posted by Creaking Door View Post

                        With regard to cannon-armed twin-engined fighters hacking-down unescorted bombers, it has always been the role envisaged for them, but I cannot really think of any time during the war when it actually happened?
                        Not just the Bf 110, but the Bf 410 as well. The LW had a large number of bomber kills in those planes. The role was later taken up by the Sturmbocks. Single engined fighters, but same idea - heavily armed and armoured bomber destroyers. The Germans evidently thought the idea had merit.

                        I wonder how the Whirlwind would have fared in this role ?
                        Last edited by otis; 14th February 2015, 01:45.

                        Comment

                        • arquebus
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jun 2008
                          • 277

                          Once the Americans had escorting Mustangs it became too costly for the Germans to put up singles seat fighters since there was a higher priority for fighters on the eastern front. Galland was always trying to hold back deployment of fighters against bombers so he could build up a large enough force of daylight fighters to take on the bombers streams. But nightfighter technology steadily increased on both sides till the end of the war. Another idea worth mentioning was Schrange Musik where guns on nightfighters were angled upward to fire on the bombers from underneath

                          Comment

                          • otis
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Dec 2009
                            • 211

                            Originally posted by arquebus View Post
                            Another idea worth mentioning was Schrange Musik where guns on nightfighters were angled upward to fire on the bombers from underneath
                            Like on a Boulton Paul Defiant ?

                            Comment

                            • Richard gray
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 489

                              Webpilot. It is true that I had not given much thought at the time of posting, it was 2 am.
                              But the more I think about it, the more feasible it becomes.

                              Lets imagine the Luffwaffe mission for the day is to bomb Norwich, to destroy Horsham St faiths airfield and the manufacturing sites and Railway at Trowse. (8 mls apart).
                              They sent 500 bombers with a 100 fighters. We have 5 wellingtons circling the city, with regular updates of the speed and height of the approaching bombers.

                              Ignoring the fighters, the German ones and ours, from St faiths.

                              Can you say how many of those bombers can avoid coming within 2000yds (effective range of Browning .50 Caliber Machine Gun) of one of the wellingtons, and still complete their mission.

                              No second chance. The bombers had to return. Would they have enough fuel to make a big detour?
                              The YB40 were not a success because they were used in an offensive role (against Germany) not a defensive one.
                              No, they were defensive.

                              It was a defensive role in an offensive, thats why I put against Germany in Brackets.

                              Comment

                              • WebPilot
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2000
                                • 1902

                                John, john. Just think before putting finger to keyboard. Slow bombers can't catch fast ones and shoot them down. This scenario will see the fighters fighting each other and the wellingtons somewhere way behind the German bombers that swept past them. It's not remotely possible.

                                The Defiant concept didn't work and what you've postulated is a bigger, slower, less manoeuvrable Defiant, so how's it possibly going to be any more successful than the defiant itself, and not several times less effective?
                                Last edited by WebPilot; 14th February 2015, 13:05.

                                Comment

                                • Creaking Door
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Sep 2006
                                  • 9863

                                  2000 yards may be the 'effective range' of a 50cal machine-gun but targeting one moving aircraft from another moving aircraft at that range, or even half that range, would put obtaining hits well beyond the capabilities of any gunner, I think.
                                  WA$.

                                  Comment

                                  • Moggy C
                                    Moderator
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 20534

                                    The German fighters in this scenario would be bf110, Norwich would be a one way trip for a 109

                                    Moggy
                                    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                                    Comment

                                    • arquebus
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jun 2008
                                      • 277

                                      Originally posted by Richard gray View Post
                                      Let’s imagine the Luffwaffe mission for the day is to bomb Norwich, to destroy Horsham St faiths airfield and the manufacturing sites and Railway at Trowse. (8 mls apart).
                                      They sent 500 bombers with a 100 fighters. We have 5 wellingtons circling the city, with regular updates of the speed and height of the approaching bombers.

                                      Ignoring the fighters, the German ones and ours, from St faiths.

                                      Can you say how many of those bombers can avoid coming within 2000yds (effective range of Browning .50 Caliber Machine Gun) of one of the wellingtons, and still complete their mission.
                                      The problem with this senario is that you cant ignore the fighters. The Germans did send bombers beyond the range of their fighter escort and the paid for it by big losses due to spits/hurricanes. I believe this is why the Germans switched to night bombing raids. So yes, your idea of bombers (that could match the speed of British bombers) equipped with heavy guns are valid as long as their are no escorting fighters to contend with, but its a non-issue as the Germans avoided daylight raids when they were without escort.

                                      Its really too bad that the British did not see the value of the Mosquito and rush it into production in time for the BoB because it was faster than both spitfire and me-109 and would have wrought havoc on German bombers.
                                      Last edited by arquebus; 14th February 2015, 20:06.

                                      Comment

                                      • otis
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Dec 2009
                                        • 211

                                        I know that the UP ( ground to air ) rockets were coming into action in 1941. Anyone know if the UK intended to develop air to air rockets in that period also ? The LW had them in use later on against the heavy bombers.

                                        Comment

                                        Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                        Collapse

                                         

                                        Working...
                                        X