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  • TwinOtter23
    NAM volunteer-Plugmeister
    • Jan 2006
    • 7778

    Acquisitions & Disposals

    The following link to a page on the RAFM website has just been brought to my attention.

    http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research...disposals.aspx

    I don’t think that I have seen details about it posted about these parts; apologies in advance if it has and I’ve missed it!
    Last edited by TwinOtter23; 1st October 2014, 09:44. Reason: clarity!
    Find out what's happening at newarkairmuseum.org
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  • hunterxf382
    Ex-RAF Tech 1978 -1989
    • Sep 2005
    • 1026

    #2
    Well checking the Museum's reserve collection stock here: http://piqtured.photoshelter.com/gal...000A1gVDsmB8gM then I would assume that the two helicopters involved might be:

    Bristol Sycamore XL824

    Saunders Roe Skeeter XM555
    Pete Buckingham
    Former RAF Engineer
    Volunteer in Aviation
    http://hunterxf382.weebly.com/

    Comment

    • TwinOtter23
      NAM volunteer-Plugmeister
      • Jan 2006
      • 7778

      #3
      I suspect that you may be correct with the helicopter identities.

      My understanding is that this webpage may be somewhere to watch - as it could be the likely preferred route to advise of any future disposals!
      Find out what's happening at newarkairmuseum.org
      Please help move Chinook ZA717 to Newark Air Museum

      Comment

      • avion ancien
        Long ago and far away ...
        • Aug 2007
        • 5336

        #4
        Well, watch this space...........!

        It's interesting to note that the stated reason for putting the Skeeter up for disposal is 'relevance' (presumably, lack thereof). I assume that it is not considered to be relevant to the RAFM collection because the Skeeter saw limited RAF service (training only, and then mainly training Army instructors). If the RAFM applies that principle impartially, presumably soon it will be offering for disposal a significant number of not insignificant aircraft not only from its reserve collection but also from those currently on display!

        Comment

        • HP111
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • May 2012
          • 663

          #5
          I notice that the RAF Collection is explicitly defined as being for a Museum. This is not the same as an "archive". An archive is used to permanently store anything within a broad range of relevance. The definition of "Museum" they are using clearly has more emphasis on convenience and on the perceived value of artifacts for contemporary public display. It is a recipe for being able to dispose of things. Let's hope it is not the start of a downward spiral. (My feeling is that the RAFM should be required by law not to make such disposals).

          Comment

          • TwinOtter23
            NAM volunteer-Plugmeister
            • Jan 2006
            • 7778

            #6
            One of the new 'buzzwords' (buzz-phrase) in the museum world is de-acquisition - this is not just a facet of the aviation sector.
            Find out what's happening at newarkairmuseum.org
            Please help move Chinook ZA717 to Newark Air Museum

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            • Bruce
              Independent analyst
              • Jan 2000
              • 10226

              #7
              I see no issue with disposals of this nature. There are examples of both within the national collection, and it me it makes sense to concentrate on core RAF aircraft.

              If there was a requirement in law not to dispose of things, I suspect that very little would end up being acquired in the first place.


              Bruce

              Comment

              • aeronut 2008
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2008
                • 1568

                #8
                I tried to interest the curator at Midlle Wallop in these two helicopters but she pointed out as the museum already had a Sycamore and THREE Skeeters the museum didn't have the room for a breeding programe.

                Comment

                • Discendo Duces
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Mar 2006
                  • 253

                  #9
                  A shame that Sycamore XL824, the one up for disposal, is in the authentic colours it wore in service, whilst the one at Hendon is in a training scheme not appropriate to that mark, being a trials aircraft.

                  And yes, I realise that swapping them around would not be without costs.

                  DD

                  Comment

                  • David Burke
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 10032

                    #10
                    aeronaut -pity you couldn't persuade the curator to move the Bird Dog on and replace it with a Auster I which really was the start of the AAC !

                    Comment

                    • David Burke
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 10032

                      #11
                      Bruce -difficult one with the RAFM ! If it were to concentrate on core RAF machines the likes of the Bristol 188 and TSR-2 at Cosford to name two would be very hard to justify!

                      Comment

                      • Tin Triangle
                        Bright Young Thing
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 1218

                        #12
                        Surprising they opted to dispose of the helicopters, which are original and complete (and look in good condition) on the basis of duplication and relevance, but overlooked a plastic Typhoon, Swiss-built Vampire, derelict PT-19 and the Miles Mohawk (how long did that actually spend on display?!)
                        It's also a bit of a shame that Hendon or Cosford can't find a small space for the Proctor-whose significance to the RAF is quite considerable.
                        Armchair enthusiast, but also a fan of sofas and recliners.

                        Comment

                        • ericmunk
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 1743

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Tin Triangle View Post
                          Surprising they opted to dispose of the helicopters, which are original and complete (and look in good condition) on the basis of duplication and relevance, but overlooked a plastic Typhoon, Swiss-built Vampire, derelict PT-19 and the Miles Mohawk (how long did that actually spend on display?!)
                          It's also a bit of a shame that Hendon or Cosford can't find a small space for the Proctor-whose significance to the RAF is quite considerable.
                          From the first line of the document linked: 'The Royal Air Force Museum has reviewed its current holdings in the Helicopter Collection'. I may have overlooked a rare prototype or two, but I am fairly certain the museum does not hold helicopter-versions of the Typhoon, Vampire, PT-19 or Mohawk.

                          Comment

                          • Tin Triangle
                            Bright Young Thing
                            • Dec 2009
                            • 1218

                            #14
                            My mistake, sorry!
                            Armchair enthusiast, but also a fan of sofas and recliners.

                            Comment

                            • HP111
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • May 2012
                              • 663

                              #15
                              Originally posted by David Burke View Post
                              Bruce -difficult one with the RAFM ! If it were to concentrate on core RAF machines the likes of the Bristol 188 and TSR-2 at Cosford to name two would be very hard to justify!
                              Interesting that they were both built in very small numbers and were both in different senses failures, but are considered iconic in the public eye (apparently). And no, I am not complaining that they are being exhibited.

                              Comment

                              • DaveF68
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jun 2004
                                • 1791

                                #16
                                Originally posted by David Burke View Post
                                aeronaut -pity you couldn't persuade the curator to move the Bird Dog on and replace it with a Auster I which really was the start of the AAC !
                                The Cessna as a type does at least have a relationship to the AAC:

                                http://www.656squadron.org/galleries...l%20pilot.html

                                http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...ps8d695792.jpg

                                If this is part of a wider examination of the collection, then it may perhaps mean the end for the bitsa P-51.

                                On the subject of acquisitions (and relevancy) - anyone know what's happened to the IL-2 and A-20 they were supposed to be getting?

                                Comment

                                • David Burke
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 10032

                                  #17
                                  Indeed it has a small association -undoubtedly due to the performance of the Auster AOP.6 out there. A Piper L-4 would have far greater relevance in the story of AOP aviation in this country and worldwide.

                                  Regarding the P-51 -I managed to have a very good look at this machine at Halton - it really isn't needed with the pristine example happily sat at Hendon.

                                  Comment

                                  • K4235
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Nov 2011
                                    • 93

                                    #18
                                    Perhaps they could swap the Skeeter for a proper CFS example XM556 or XM564.

                                    I guess if I was looking at possible disposals/exchanges with the collection swap/loan out the Swiss Venom and get the ex RAF NF3 WX905 (which should not have been disposed of in the first place in my opinion) back from Newark on loan maybe?.
                                    I also think the following (maybe me being controversial) are out of place with the collections policy and perhaps could be used as swap items for future acquisitions
                                    Casa Jungmann
                                    Casa 352 (Ju52)
                                    Flying Flea
                                    Mustang at Cosford
                                    Neptune
                                    Catalina
                                    RF-84 Thunderjet
                                    Swiss Vampire at Stafford
                                    Pucara

                                    Comment

                                    • DaveF68
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jun 2004
                                      • 1791

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by K4235 View Post
                                      Neptune
                                      Catalina

                                      Pucara
                                      The Neptune and Catalina at least represent ex-RAF types for which there is no genuine RAF equivalent (although from memory there used to be at least one genuine, un-modified ex-RAF P2V5 in America) and the Pucara fits in with the 'adversary' types.

                                      The Jungmann, Flying Flea and RF-84 don't really fit at all. I'd go further and bring the Swift back as well!

                                      In terms of helicopters, it's interesting that the Skeeter isn't relevant but the MH-53 is!!

                                      Comment

                                      • David Burke
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 10032

                                        #20
                                        I would argue that the Messerschmitt Me410 could quite happily be sent back to Germany and the Kawasaki Ki100 to Japan and the space freed up used for the likes
                                        of the Cotton Lockheed Electra Junior.

                                        Comment

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